Top Fashion Labels Declared 'Substandard'

[BaroqueRockstar]

everyone produces cheap goods to some extent, and the infamous cheap-labour-cheap-product reputation china has started with foreign corporations, no (nike, anyone?)?
it's good to know steps are made to expose these things now...

 

[lucy92]

i also think that the chinese government report is a smokescreen to deflect attention.

 

[elschic111]

No, Chinese government has no desire to block the European luxury goods. It's impossible to do that either since the Chinese customers for European luxury goods also want genuinely made in Italy or France luxury goods. If I were a senior government official back in China, I would be much more interested in nurturing the local luxuxry labels with everything made in our own country rather than force Chanel or Fendi to transfer their production to here, that simply doesn't make sense.

I won't doubt those test results either since the most likely those are quite simple, straightforward routine tests done by labs of authority (I am a Ph.D.-educated scientist in the US myself). But why this whole substandard thing was suddenly exposed and became such a high-profile event on Chinese media, that's a different story. Some people said it's highly political-driven, and probably has a lot to do with EU's imposition of high tariff on shoes made in China last year, or maybe even EU's refusal to remove the arm embargo recently, so these European luxury goods makers just became the victims of the EU-China poltical frictions. I think that kind of explanation makes a bit sense. No matter what the real cause is, these tested products have quality issue, that's a matter of fact.

that's what i'm saying though. who says they couldn't have fudged the results? or that they didn't just tamper with the goods a teensy bit before conducting the tests? in economics we're always talking about how they value their currency..they're not very straightforward about that.

you are proposing isi (import substitute industrialization for the non-economists here) for luxury goods in a way. while i think china should take measures to boost its domestic uxury goods industry, it is actually plausible from their point of view to try to get more euro luxury goods produced in china, and perhaps a necessary step in their effort to boost domestic luxury goods makers. i mean both options are hard--it's nearly impossible to develop the level of craftsmanship necessary to create a successful luxury design house from scratch without inside knowledge from the major (european) luxury goods makers (i.e. w/o chinese factories making the goods and learning how it's done, which is also called technology transfer) the govt isn't thinking that much about the customer. they are thinking about technology transfer and intellectual property. and ownership and taxes and all the other good stuff govts take into account when they meddle in international business.

 

[Caffeine]

Good stuff.
Also recall the SKII issue months ago? The Japanese government tested some agricultural goods imported from China and then banned them; then there came the test on SKII products. The results surprised many people and the SKII products were taken off from the shelves by many vendors.
The truth is that it's definitely part of the trade war, but the test on SKII was also legit. when you spend so much money on the products using on your face, hey, you want to make sure it's 100% safe. SKII, unfortunately, simply didn't make the cut.
the consumer groups actually test on skin care and baby products often in China. They would ban certain products including the ones made in China if they are substandard or even hazardous. Tests are also used towards trade wars, and China is just one of teh countries who does that.

 

[haoshcn]

that's what i'm saying though. who says they couldn't have fudged the results? or that they didn't just tamper with the goods a teensy bit before conducting the tests? in economics we're always talking about how they value their currency..they're not very straightforward about that.

you are proposing isi (import substitute industrialization for the non-economists here) for luxury goods in a way. while i think china should take measures to boost its domestic uxury goods industry, it is actually plausible from their point of view to try to get more euro luxury goods produced in china, and perhaps a necessary step in their effort to boost domestic luxury goods makers. i mean both options are hard--it's nearly impossible to develop the level of craftsmanship necessary to create a successful luxury design house from scratch without inside knowledge from the major (european) luxury goods makers (i.e. w/o chinese factories making the goods and learning how it's done, which is also called technology transfer) the govt isn't thinking that much about the customer. they are thinking about technology transfer and intellectual property. and ownership and taxes and all the other good stuff govts take into account when they meddle in international business.

From what I read in Chinese newspapers, some of the tested products have very significant quality problems, it's much worse than the official standards. Did they mess up the products before conducting the tests? I don't know, I wasn't there when they did the tests, I can't say they definitely didn't, but I highly doubt that would be true.

As for the currency exchange rate issue, first of all, that's a totally irrelevant subject. But if you really want some discussions, OK, yes, Chinese currency is undervalued and doesn't match its real purchasing power back in China. Even we Chinese acknowledge that in public back in our own country. But, if our currency really appreciates by another 30 or 40% against US dollar all of a sudden, tens of millions of people who work in those export-oriented industries will lose their jobs, and most likely won't even be able to survive because they have very little education and very little valuable skills. So what would you expect our government to do? Those guys who criticise Chinese on this subject should look at European governments, look at what French and Italian governments do in order to protect a single job back in their home countries before they point their fingers on us.

Why should we even get European craftsmanship to make Chinese luxury goods? If we want to make genuine Chinese luxury goods, we should make them in our own ways using uinque Chinese techniques and craftsmanship. We should probably learn the management and marketing expertise from LVMH or other luxury houses. As for the manufacturing process, seriously who would be intersted in some Chinese luxury goods made like Fendi or Gucci? Those stuff would be inferior replicas at the best, therefore would never be described as luxury goods. China is never short of highly sophisticated traditional craftsmanship, the only thing we Chinese should think about is how to revitalize them and make them modern and precious again. BTW, how many jobs could such tiny industries even create to boost Chinese economy and help lots of poor Chinese farmers get out of poverty? With the Chinese economy still so much underdeveloped compared with the US and Europe, I am sure our government would be ten times more interested in having more automobiles and microchips made in China rather than some pretty and expessive dresses or handbags.

 

[JJohnson]

I wonder how many chemicals a good dry-cleaning will add.

I agree! lol! dry cleaning isnt in fact "dry" also...the article said these chemicals cause these side effects at high concentrations, so unless you plan on going to the factory and taking a dip in the dye, I doubt it is THAT big of a deal. On a similar note, Apple seeds have a small concentration of cyanide, but accidentally swallowing a few doesnt mean ur going to die. Only when you eat 4000 at once perhaps?

 

[JJohnson]

From what I understand, the Chinese gov't purposely devalues their currency against other world markets to make themselves more lucrative for exports. Why pay a lot more from the USA or Europe when a country can get it cheaper from China? It's win-win for both. What is good for the US economy isnt good for China and vise versa. The US protects itself from the export problem by using Petro dollars, but that's a different topic. Regarding designers making their products in China, im not sure who does it, but only 30% of a garment has to be made in a certain country to get the "made in" tag. I know Ralph Lauren is sneaky and has his products made in Guam, which is US soil, and then slaps a "Made in USA" tag on it as if it was made in New York. Also, I too dont think China is trying to prevent luxury goods because those are a hot item in Asia right now. Women form lines outside designer stores in hopes of getting a taste of luxury and following patterns of Western culture. Perhaps this article was just telling the truth, but overall I think it should have no concern to our health. If luxury clothes are made this way, I cant imagine how horribly cheaper clothes are. So unless your completly dressed in..lets say Lanvin or something, no one is safe, infact we are worse...but then again, I say it's not that bad.

 

[rochasfille]

I'm not at all surprised. This is the very reason I refuse to purchase anything made in China. I would prefer my things to be made in U.S.A. since I live here and would like to benefit my home economy, but Japanese and Italian-made goods have never let me down.

 

[haoshcn]

I'm not at all surprised. This is the very reason I refuse to purchase anything made in China. I would prefer my things to be made in U.S.A. since I live here and would like to benefit my home economy, but Japanese and Italian-made goods have never let me down.

No problem, buy whatever you want to buy and reject whatever you don't like. But please note that almost all the tested products in this news story are European luxury goods; Chanel, Armani, Zegna, Max Mara; which are made in France or Italy. You simply miss the point of the whole story.

 

[PrinceOfCats]

No problem, buy whatever you want to buy and reject whatever you don't like. But please note that almost all the tested products in this news story are European luxury goods; Chanel, Armani, Zegna, Max Mara; which are made in France or Italy. You simply miss the point of the whole story.

Chanel and Zegna are not listed by the article. In fact, all the brands listed have secondary lines which are probably off-shored.

 

[Caffeine]

Chanel and Zegna are not listed by the article. In fact, all the brands listed have secondary lines which are probably off-shored.

I read the original article in Chinese. The brands that failed the test included Chanel and Armani.
well, I still wear Chanel although it didn't pass the test. But it's quite ironic that a brand that charges so much on their products would fail a basic test.

The tests ultimately benefit the consumers. In previous cases, manufacturers simply take the unqualified products off their shelves and only sell the ones that made the cut. If one out of twenty Chanel suits contains harmful material, I think that Chanel is obligated to recall the suits and make them right.

 

[haoshcn]

Chanel and Zegna are not listed by the article. In fact, all the brands listed have secondary lines which are probably off-shored.

No, they were not listed in the first post of this thread and that post didn't tell the whole story either, but I know what brands were tested from what I read on Chinese media. Chinese newspapers even mentioned from which stores in Shanghai some of the products were picked up for tests. I know very well which lines (made in Italy/France premium line or off-shored secondary lines) those stores actually carry.

 

[bearbrick]

I'm not at all surprised. This is the very reason I refuse to purchase anything made in China. I would prefer my things to be made in U.S.A. since I live here and would like to benefit my home economy, but Japanese and Italian-made goods have never let me down.

typical ignorant and dumb reply to this thread...not only you not know what the content of the article means your reply reflects your shallow nature which gives fashion a bad rap. go ahead stay in your bubble and may you keep it air tight .

 

[bearbrick]

From what I understand, the Chinese gov't purposely devalues their currency against other world markets to make themselves more lucrative for exports. Why pay a lot more from the USA or Europe when a country can get it cheaper from China? It's win-win for both. What is good for the US economy isnt good for China and vise versa. The US protects itself from the export problem by using Petro dollars, but that's a different topic. Regarding designers making their products in China, im not sure who does it, but only 30% of a garment has to be made in a certain country to get the "made in" tag. I know Ralph Lauren is sneaky and has his products made in Guam, which is US soil, and then slaps a "Made in USA" tag on it as if it was made in New York. Also, I too dont think China is trying to prevent luxury goods because those are a hot item in Asia right now. Women form lines outside designer stores in hopes of getting a taste of luxury and following patterns of Western culture. Perhaps this article was just telling the truth, but overall I think it should have no concern to our health. If luxury clothes are made this way, I cant imagine how horribly cheaper clothes are. So unless your completly dressed in..lets say Lanvin or something, no one is safe, infact we are worse...but then again, I say it's not that bad.

.....thanks jjohnson for this balanced and level headed insight ...a breathe of fresh air . fashion is a complex matter as it is , let alone let the politicians
interfere ....by the time they are through .....we would probably be back to the good ole reliable loin cloth and not much else ....B)

having said that ...... hope the quality of workmanship of prada bags have improved ...if we dont get poisoned by it , they will fall apart anyway ...

 

[JJohnson]

Yea you're right bearbrick, I don't really like Prada or some Gucci bags because I feel it's a rip off to pay such a high price for Nylon....if investing in a luxury good I do want it to seem expensive by way of materials paralled with the label. But lets not get into the habit of thinking that France/Italy always equal quality and China is always cheap...not always the case. Even the USA can be crappy e.g. American car manufacturers, thus low quality items can come from any country and depending on how well the factory is managed, anything can have flaws. The only problem with this argument is that labels shouldnt charge the high price if they know things arent up to par, but fashion isnt the only industry that sometimes rips people off....

 

[elschic111]

From what I read in Chinese newspapers, some of the tested products have very significant quality problems, it's much worse than the official standards. Did they mess up the products before conducting the tests? I don't know, I wasn't there when they did the tests, I can't say they definitely didn't, but I highly doubt that would be true.

As for the currency exchange rate issue, first of all, that's a totally irrelevant subject. But if you really want some discussions, OK, yes, Chinese currency is undervalued and doesn't match its real purchasing power back in China. Even we Chinese acknowledge that in public back in our own country. But, if our currency really appreciates by another 30 or 40% against US dollar all of a sudden, tens of millions of people who work in those export-oriented industries will lose their jobs, and most likely won't even be able to survive because they have very little education and very little valuable skills. So what would you expect our government to do? Those guys who criticise Chinese on this subject should look at European governments, look at what French and Italian governments do in order to protect a single job back in their home countries before they point their fingers on us.

Why should we even get European craftsmanship to make Chinese luxury goods? If we want to make genuine Chinese luxury goods, we should make them in our own ways using uinque Chinese techniques and craftsmanship. We should probably learn the management and marketing expertise from LVMH or other luxury houses. As for the manufacturing process, seriously who would be intersted in some Chinese luxury goods made like Fendi or Gucci? Those stuff would be inferior replicas at the best, therefore would never be described as luxury goods. China is never short of highly sophisticated traditional craftsmanship, the only thing we Chinese should think about is how to revitalize them and make them modern and precious again. BTW, how many jobs could such tiny industries even create to boost Chinese economy and help lots of poor Chinese farmers get out of poverty? With the Chinese economy still so much underdeveloped compared with the US and Europe, I am sure our government would be ten times more interested in having more automobiles and microchips made in China rather than some pretty and expessive dresses or handbags.

Okay, you didn't read my post well.

China is NOTORIOUS for intellectual property theft. The government is regarded by the international community as being somewhat unscrupulous. I don't blame them for refusing to put their people out of work! I'm just saying that this is the situation.

My key point though is this: China has really, really questionable track record with IP theft and it poses a major threat for western firms. The Chinese economy is growing at an INCREDIBLE rate, and it's not just "poor farmers getting out of poverty." Stealing intellectual property in the vast amounts that the Chinese people are doing--and granted, it is their government that is facilitating this--is just not something I can look at and not be critical of. It's not a small amount. It's HUGE. And it's enough to make me shocked that so many people on this forum would just believe what they read in the paper without questioning it...

I just think that a report from a government which is not the most forthcoming in the world should be taken with a grain of salt.

Do some reading darling! And not all in the Chinese papers

Plus...have you SEEN the best fakes lately? They are not as inferior as you would think...although I don't condone the production or consumption of them..

Did you hear about what happened with Chrysler and the Jeeps? Or Audi?

I do agree with you on the craftsmanship though--China has amazing traditional craftsmanship, and I do believe they will develop their own distinct luxury brands. However, it is still important to firms like LVMH to be able to say "made in italy" etc. on their products, because that's what the customer wants according to industry consultants.

 

[elschic111]

And to respond to JJohnson--yes dear you're absolutely right. I agree. None of what I wrote before was intended to imply otherwise.

Of course China does not want to block the sale of luxury goods in their country. Duh. They can't. But I think they either want to take a stab at LVMH et al, or draw attention away from accusations leveled at their government.

 

[happyguy]

my aunt had a fake LV bag...it looked so real!!! from the hardware bits to the texture of the bag. surreal...in my opinion, anything could be made in china and brought back and as long as the last bits of that one product was attached/sewn/stuck on in Italy, France, US and England, that's what the tag would say.

Made in England/Italy/France/US.

It's really rude and naive to condemn China made garments/bags as lousy and/or of poor quality. What they make, be it an original or fake, matches what the other countries produce. Maybe what you've seen are bad fakes but what i've been shown...it blew me away.

 

[bearbrick]

Okay, you didn't read my post well.

China is NOTORIOUS for intellectual property theft. The government is regarded by the international community as being somewhat unscrupulous. I don't blame them for refusing to put their people out of work! I'm just saying that this is the situation.

My key point though is this: China has really, really questionable track record with IP theft and it poses a major threat for western firms. The Chinese economy is growing at an INCREDIBLE rate, and it's not just "poor farmers getting out of poverty." Stealing intellectual property in the vast amounts that the Chinese people are doing--and granted, it is their government that is facilitating this--is just not something I can look at and not be critical of. It's not a small amount. It's HUGE. And it's enough to make me shocked that so many people on this forum would just believe what they read in the paper without questioning it...

I just think that a report from a government which is not the most forthcoming in the world should be taken with a grain of salt.

Do some reading darling! And not all in the Chinese papers

Plus...have you SEEN the best fakes lately? They are not as inferior as you would think...although I don't condone the production or consumption of them..

Did you hear about what happened with Chrysler and the Jeeps? Or Audi?

I do agree with you on the craftsmanship though--China has amazing traditional craftsmanship, and I do believe they will develop their own distinct luxury brands. However, it is still important to firms like LVMH to be able to say "made in italy" etc. on their products, because that's what the customer wants according to industry consultants.

yet another example of a rant that hasnt been thought through thoroughly....IP thefts indeed.......this matter madam is bigger than you and i and i suggest you do a bit more MACRO thinking and research before you start this ridiculous rant .

incld the arrogant dismissal of the chinese govt press reports ..typical closed minded attitudes that can only come from insular bystanders....while at the same time accepting - probably verbatim - what "industry consultants " said should and should not be done.....sigh.

you read more and please let it be beyond wwd and time ....and then you should think more....

 

[haoshcn]

Okay, you didn't read my post well.

China is NOTORIOUS for intellectual property theft. The government is regarded by the international community as being somewhat unscrupulous. I don't blame them for refusing to put their people out of work! I'm just saying that this is the situation.

My key point though is this: China has really, really questionable track record with IP theft and it poses a major threat for western firms. The Chinese economy is growing at an INCREDIBLE rate, and it's not just "poor farmers getting out of poverty." Stealing intellectual property in the vast amounts that the Chinese people are doing--and granted, it is their government that is facilitating this--is just not something I can look at and not be critical of. It's not a small amount. It's HUGE. And it's enough to make me shocked that so many people on this forum would just believe what they read in the paper without questioning it...

I just think that a report from a government which is not the most forthcoming in the world should be taken with a grain of salt.

Do some reading darling! And not all in the Chinese papers

Plus...have you SEEN the best fakes lately? They are not as inferior as you would think...although I don't condone the production or consumption of them..

Did you hear about what happened with Chrysler and the Jeeps? Or Audi?

I do agree with you on the craftsmanship though--China has amazing traditional craftsmanship, and I do believe they will develop their own distinct luxury brands. However, it is still important to firms like LVMH to be able to say "made in italy" etc. on their products, because that's what the customer wants according to industry consultants.

First of all, this is a fashion forum, not a politics forum, if you are so much interested in debating Chinese politics, from cheap Chinese imports taking away jobs from your country because of the exchange rate, to how much unscrupulously we are stealing your "high-tech", your "superior design" (seriously what the heck does that has anything to do with this whole news story, I really admire your capability of association ), please go to other places. There are millions of such online forums for you to satisfy your obsession of China-bashing, please stay away from TFS, and keep it politics-free, this is one of the guiding rules of TFS and also why lots of people (including me) like it.

BTW, this whole thing happened in China and was fully covered in all the details by Chinese media. What you read from press outside China about it are all second-handed information. Do you think what I should believe? To be honest, what you read on non-Chinese media about this story is much more likely to be added with a grain of salt.

Lady, I lived in both China and the US, I am older than 30, I read all kinds of things, both in Chinese and English, both news stories and classics. I have enough education and life experience to be critical (not always judgemental) to what I read and see. Please keep your preachings to your niece or nephew in kindergarten, thanks! And also, you talk about people believe what they read without thinking. May I ask you to think about yourself? Have you ever lived in China, do you know Chinese language, do you read Chinese books and newspapers, do you have lots of Chinese friends who tell you what China is really like? If the answer is no, how could you be so sure what you read about China is true? Seriously, I think lots of stuff that I read on English media tends to give a subjective and distorted view of China, and quite often highly poltical- and ideological-charged. Unfortunately I detected the same tone in your post.

I can debate with you on on every single point from your post, and go for pages and pages on this thread. But I have no interest to do that on this forum at all. Let's go to the appropriate place to do that if you want. I am afraid this post is already too long.