Why Is The Fashion Industry In The State That It's In Today?

[velvetandsilk]

Fashion is dead. As is almost every cultural industry - movies, music, art, architecture, etc.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not an anti-capitalist. But, I do believe in regulating it, to a certain degree.

This problem is raising in economy world. Some people started promoting stakhholder capitalism.
According to me problem results from the fashion education system and corporation. In old days fashion designer was not prestige job. Designer was person which fascinated textile and tailoring. Nowdays, a lot of kids want to be fashion designer because they think is easy and cool job. I remember situation when i attended on lectures at the local fashion school and knowledges pupils about fashion system was tragic.

 

[susseinmcswanny]

Is this the right thread? Lol. Perhaps maybe oversaturation thread is better



Bottega, Versace, Prada, honorable mention Just Cavalli lol

Why.

Marketing marketing marketing. Branding branding branding. Merch merch merch.

End times behavior

 

[Drusilla_]

The focus on endless growth tbh. That was step 1, continuously cheapening their products to literal throwaway items was step 2, trying to position themselves as a bastion of progressiveness and "for everyone" was step 3 -and I don't just mean the big brands, I mean any apparel retailer. I blame the venture capitalist/investor/conglomerate mindset for 1 tbh, the rest is just knock-on effects of those demands. But it's to be expected when you have designers who have no other way to get the capital to start their brands.

 

[susseinmcswanny]

Was looking at Balenciaga pics from when Alexander Wang was there (idk why) and 1) it freaked me out that 2014 was 10 years ago and 2) I was kind of shocked at how much has changed since then!! Regardless if it was good or bad or whatever, I feel like it was still somewhat designed with a person in mind. For real life. It made me panic a little how fing crazy it's gotten with putting pure gimmicks on the runway. Like real pure gimmicks. Not even good ones. It's the entertainment industry now. Suits that have the money to fund a designer don't give one f*ck about the idea of designing clothes for a person anymore. It's been reduced down to purely how can we boost engagement and sell sell sell fast fast fast. I'm scared 😩 I know it's not all bad and there are still people putting out nice stuff but the gluttony of everything else is so sickening. It feels like a train going 200mph getting ready to hit a wall.

 

[philophile]

This thread is amazing (best thread I've read in the whole forum thus far) and I think almost everyone has put their 2 cents.

I've been observing fashion very closely for the past 12 years, and fashion began changing very much: first, with the rise of fashion bloggers (2008-2013) and later it took a turn in the opposite direction with the rise of Instagram influencers and the rise of algorithmic culture. All of a sudden, it wasn't Vogue, LVMH or Kering dictating trends and what people wanted to wear, instead, it was 'normal' people who authentically loved fashion writing about it, sharing their thoughts, DIYs and styling ideas, their individual POV. Thus, this is how we came to the now defunct 'democratization of fashion', which was the period in time where brands like Chanel, Gucci, etc seemed almost irrelevant and it was the golden age of independent designer brands. Back then, even the most succesful bloggers, unlike today's influencers, couldn't boast about working with huge brands, because the luxury fashion conglomerates were not happy that they couldn't control the narrative anymore and you bet that they have always been reluctant to change.

However, later on, nobody was reading blogs anymore and bloggers had to migrate to Instagram. Therefore, at some point, people stopped writing about fashion and as everything became more visually oriented adapting to the Instagram format, more people felt they could join. Here is when the Instagram influencer is born and when agencies and luxury fashion conglomerates basically either embraced their own 'independent' voices or adopted fame hungry puppet figures or socialites who would sell their souls to the devil in exchange for the latest 'it' bag. If you ask me, I think the vast majority of influencers (even the macro) have bought their social media following, their engagement, in the hopes that they can fake it til they make it (and so many actually did, it worked).

Influencers today look very different to your OG fashion blogger. While the latter could look like anything and were 'real' people posting their authentic opinions, the former have been physically altered with a very calculated cookie cutter look (lip fillers, EDs, rhinoplasties, etc). Nowadays, the biggest luxury fashion houses work with too many influencers to count and they have managed to control the narrative yet again and to monopolize fashion (now more than ever), hence the end of the democratization of fashion.

Of course, influencers aside, algorithmic culture has been homogenizing fashion more than it ever has been. Now everything that is created by any brand or person needs to be algorithm-friendly, which means things need to be created with the purpose of receiving likes so that they appear in followers' feeds or in the Explore page. This can result in either cookie cutter formulas that have already been proven successful or things created inauthentically just for shock value (Demna, I'm looking at you). In conclusion, almost nothing is created to disrupt the system or challenge it, it needs to be created to reinforce it or just to become social media famous, or for likes, engagement, virality, everything but for creation's own sake.

There's the other incredibly important aspect too that some of you mentioned: The economic system based on endless growth, which has affected not just the fashion industry, but the film(hello Marvel franchise) and music industry (good-bye indie music) as well. Since companies need to grow each year, they need are unwilling to take any risks, therefore, they are forced to use and repeat formulas that have already been proven successful.

I do not think inclusion and diversity in fashion is to blame for anything and there are zero logical and reasonable arguments to back this. If anything, even scientists acknowledge that diversity strengthens and enhances creativity as it includes new perspectives that lead to better problem-solving. Diversity doesn't contradict aspiration, fantasy, and escapism, in fact, it most often enhances or compliments it. However, I do think we have lost standards, because nowadays everybody can be anything without having 0 clue of what they are doing. I also think that it is sad that people don't aspire to more than what they can relate to, this defines this reality TV defined generation. Nonetheless, this has nothing to do with diversity and inclusivity and neither of these has anything to do with not having independent ideas anymore, it has to do more with our current economic system and algorithmic culture defining what needs to be produced.

 

[philophile]

PS: Thanks to diversity in fashion we've had designers of the height of Azzedine and Haider or fashion photographers like Rafael Pavarotti. If fashion had been more inclusive and diverse in the past as it has been in the past decade, I'm pretty certain it would have been much better than what many people remember with nostalgia.

 

[lookatme]

Something that I have also noticed over the last several years is the simplification of the actual designer clothing. It's all styling gimmicks now - the actual construction and fabrication has become significantly more basic.

It's no wonder the vintage designer market has exploded recently - there's actual value there. You'll find intricate and inventive construction and pattern making, delicate finishing and fabrications, etc. I was just thinking the other day how you never see silk georgette anymore! You barely even see chiffon anymore! It's all easy to sew fabrics on the catwalks and in the stores. Lots of cut and sew knits.

Start paying attention to the catwalks now - you'll notice everything is very much side seam, vertical bust darts, set in sleeve, 1/4" hem finish, etc. It's very clear these brands have done a lot of cost cutting in the sampling phase of development.

Plus, I don't think the current generation of designers even have the the know-how or interest to challenge their ateliers, let alone their manufacturers to try anything truly complicated.

AND YET - the retail price tag continues to increase inexplicably!

 

[susseinmcswanny]

I don't think the vintage designer market is booming because of fabric and construction. It's for buying trophies. But anyways that's probably true about streamlining production. Nobody buying from those brands actually cares about that stuff anyways (or the majority of them I guess). It's about quick recognizability being at the forefront of "design" to let the potential viewers know the exact one dimensional status of what they're wearing in a really plain and easy way. And the problem about designers of the current generation is two fold (maybe more lol). One, most people that are positioning themselves to be put in a public creative director role are the ones who want to be a designer rather than want to design clothes. Example Ludovic who literally will not even TRY to figure out how to learn the basics of making clothes, instead taking squares of some sheer fabric or metal mesh to just drape it over someone's chest just so he can do his c*nt walk down the runway at the end of his show. And the 2nd is the people who fund these designers want to see an immediate return on their investment, so they seek out the people who fit the short attention span profile and rotate them around brands at a fast enough rate in an effort to reduce the possibility of staleness. It sounds so miserable but I feel like it could be worse. I don't know, even back 20 years people were complaining about fashion's focus on the middle-market with commercialism and hyper-consumption and look where we are now saying the same things, although today feels tremendously worse, and I believe it is. Just wondering what it's gonna look like in the next 20 lol so gonna ~try~ to focus on finding the good in the moment with what we have now. It just might not be coming from the regular main pillars in the industry right now.

 

[philophile]

Something that I have also noticed over the last several years is the simplification of the actual designer clothing. It's all styling gimmicks now - the actual construction and fabrication has become significantly more basic.

It's no wonder the vintage designer market has exploded recently - there's actual value there. You'll find intricate and inventive construction and pattern making, delicate finishing and fabrications, etc.

This is so very true. The cost-cutting aspect of fashion is a reality, because relocation of production was not enough. Nowadays, you buy a designer skirt or anything that has a zipper, and it's not unlikely that it could potentially break relatively easily.
One of my favorite coats is a Y2K vintage maxi coat I bought a few years ago (and it's not even designer, but from a mid range popular brand at the time). The material, construction, fit is like nothing you see anymore, even in a lot of high end designer houses. I haven't even taken much care of it, yet the construction and fit are still sound (it's a very flattering fit, that doesn't look bulky, unlike most outerwear nowadays).
I also agree that today's fashion is definitely mostly built around Insta recognizable styling gimmicks, it's just hard to miss. I guess that they just stick mostly to basics and they need to get creative to make it more marketable.

 

[NYLA22]

Was looking at Balenciaga pics from when Alexander Wang was there (idk why) and 1) it freaked me out that 2014 was 10 years ago and 2) I was kind of shocked at how much has changed since then!! Regardless if it was good or bad or whatever, I feel like it was still somewhat designed with a person in mind. For real life. It made me panic a little how fing crazy it's gotten with putting pure gimmicks on the runway. Like real pure gimmicks. Not even good ones. It's the entertainment industry now. Suits that have the money to fund a designer don't give one f*ck about the idea of designing clothes for a person anymore. It's been reduced down to purely how can we boost engagement and sell sell sell fast fast fast. I'm scared 😩 I know it's not all bad and there are still people putting out nice stuff but the gluttony of everything else is so sickening. It feels like a train going 200mph getting ready to hit a wall.

Yes, yes, yes. And it feels that way to me regarding society in general. Not sure where you live, but here in the U.S., everything feels so out of control that it's all leading up to something monstrous (even more so than the last several years have shown). I guess it all comes down to late stage capitalism + social media = absolute chaos and societal degradation?

 

[philophile]

The other aspect that I've thought of and I also read about somewhere is the fact that due to the extremely nepotist and classist nature of fashion nowadays, people are ignoring the "crazy" ones. Yes, they are deliberately ignoring the ones like Galliano or McQueen or Gaultier or the ones that came out of nowhere and are autodidacts and freaking insane in their heads (I do not believe Galliano is truly antisemitic, I believe he was made fun of due to his extremely excentric appearance and he clapped back in the worst possible way). They are purposefully ignoring them, because they look 'icky' or like 'freaks' and these people can't get ever past appearances, but wouldn't ever be able to spot talent even if it was in front of their faces. Fashion people being less superficial than they are is a reality that they need to assume for their own sake. Or perhaps such talents simply mean too much risk to take in an industry completely dependent on an economy that has as an imperative to maximize profits every year.

 

[Nimsay]

Hard disagree.

Fashion has not been thst hard to get into. If you sew clothes finely you will be given an opportunity. The whole reason Marc Bohan even existed is because he made clothes finely - better than anyone else. The same thing now with MGC, Sabato etc. A Wang got shown the door quickly for his lack of skill…when I say sew clothes finely I mean much better than your local fashion week designer.

People these days just are too conformist to truly be original. this generation is full of people looking for an identity so of course they have no unique POV. Like John Galliano is an UberMensch.

Honestly if I were 17 and wanted to be a fashion designer. All I would do is focus on making the most perfect tuxedos. Then go and make crazy looking stuff assembled to perfection. That will guarantee a role at any fashion house.

 

[gallianostan]

Yes, they are deliberately ignoring the ones like Galliano or McQueen or Gaultier or the ones that came out of nowhere and are autodidacts and freaking insane in their heads. They are purposefully ignoring them, because they look 'icky' or like 'freaks' and these people can't get ever past appearances, but wouldn't ever be able to spot talent even if it was in front of their faces.

but who are these people now that you speak of? which contemporary talents are we comparing to galliano and mcqueen? who are these freaks you mention - surely not matty bovan or dilara? i'm curious as to who these alleged hidden 'crazy' gems are...

 

[Nimsay]

Im thinking its elena velez ?

 

[gallianostan]

Im thinking its elena velez ?

if elena velez is this generation's galliano or mcqueen, fashion is doomed to f*cking oblivion

 

[philophile]

but who are these people now that you speak of? which contemporary talents are we comparing to galliano and mcqueen? who are these freaks you mention - surely not matty bovan or dilara? i'm curious as to who these alleged hidden 'crazy' gems are...

I think you have misunderstood me, because I didn't imply for a second that I know who they are, neither I was comparing Galliano or McQueen to anyone in the current fashion landscape, which is kind of my point: We don't know them. They could be hidden somewhere in the world, ignored and they could die in oblivion. That's the tragedy of the current state of fashion.

 

[Alquimista]

When I look at those Central Saint Martin graduate shows, I think to myself "wtf told these kids this is good design?" It seems like they are trained to be artists who happens to make clothes, not fashion designers. It's a big problem cause you create generations of designers who don't care about design, they want to be artists. Can you imagine that happening in architecture, graphic design schools? That is the art extreme imo. The other extreme is people who believe you can only be a great fashion designer if you know to sew clothes. That to me is absurd and it can lead you to conclude that Lagerfeld and Saint Laurent were not good designers because they couldn't hold a pin. That is the craft extreme.

So one of the problems lie in education. Fashion schools teaching designers to be artists. And on the other extreme, people who believe that being a great petit main will turn you into the new Saint Laurent. Where is design in this conversation? Forgotten, in the middle, maybe. lol

I'm graduating in system analysis and software development now, but I'm gonna work with web design, and I know that developing a software is not the same as designing a website. To be a good web designer, I need to know the fundamentals of design: color, simmetry, variety, unity, proportion, pattern, etc. These are different skills. In my opinion, the future fashion designer need to know the principles of design (fashion has a few more like texture etc), then take his pen, computer, ipad, whatever and start sketching. Let the engineer do his job, and you do yours of designing great clothes, which is not a art or a craft. That does not mean it will bad to know about art or tailoring, it only mean that design is something else.

@Lola701 I would love to read your take on this.

 

[Nimsay]

Karl and Yves could both make clothes. Karl worked in the Balmain atelier. Yves worked in the Dior atelier. No top level CD is making clothes themselves purely from a time constraint standpoint.

HC is the finest and its at the top. That sets a standard. Anything that cannot stand next to a handmade garment designed by a designer who could make it themselves is simply not the Pinnacle anymore. We know Mary Grace Churi can make anything she designs. We know Galliano and Gaultier can of course. PPP can, Marc Jacobs can… This is simply the standard for excellence in the industry.

 

[philophile]

When I look at those Central Saint Martin graduate shows, I think to myself "wtf told these kids this is good design?" It seems like they are trained to be artists who happens to make clothes, not fashion designers. It's a big problem cause you create generations of designers who don't care about design, they want to be artists. Can you imagine that happening in architecture, graphic design schools? That is the art extreme imo. The other extreme is people who believe you can only be a great fashion designer if you know to sew clothes. That to me is absurd and it can lead you to conclude that Lagerfeld and Saint Laurent were not good designers because they couldn't hold a pin. That is the craft extreme.

So one of the problems lie in education. Fashion schools teaching designers to be artists. And on the other extreme, people who believe that being a great petit main will turn you into the new Saint Laurent. Where is design in this conversation? Forgotten, in the middle, maybe. lol

I'm graduating in system analysis and software development now, but I'm gonna work with web design, and I know that developing a software is not the same as designing a website. To be a good web designer, I need to know the fundamentals of design: color, simmetry, variety, unity, proportion, pattern, etc. These are different skills. In my opinion, the future fashion designer need to know the principles of design (fashion has a few more like texture etc), then take his pen, computer, ipad, whatever and start sketching. Let the engineer do his job, and you do yours of designing great clothes, which is not a art or a craft. That does not mean it will bad to know about art or tailoring, it only mean that design is something else.

@Lola701 I would love to read your take on this.

In general, I agree with you with that there seems to be a problem with education in good design, but good design is also not possible without good construction basics. I personally disagree with the notion that fashion is neither an art nor craft, since it can be both whilst also still being a functionally sound piece of art with great design. The best fashion is the ideal marriage between art, craft, and design. Fashion as a form of art is, in my opinion, critically important to culture, but of course, good design should never be overlooked as it seems to be done nowadays.

Also, I do not believe that this is a fair comparison between fashion and architecture. As someone with a background in architectural design, I can attest the responsability is much greater than being a fashion designer, as lives literally depend on it and environmental, contextual, physical, spatial, economic and even legal factors mostly determine it in terms of design. That's why I love fashion, it's far less complex than architecture and allows much more freedom, it makes dreams come true much easier.
All in all, I do agree with you that not being able to hold a pin shouldn't be a factor deciding whether someone is a good designer or not.

 

[Alquimista]

Karl and Yves could both make clothes. Karl worked in the Balmain atelier. Yves worked in the Dior atelier. No top level CD is making clothes themselves purely from a time constraint standpoint.

HC is the finest and its at the top. That sets a standard. Anything that cannot stand next to a handmade garment designed by a designer who could make it themselves is simply not the Pinnacle anymore. We know Mary Grace Churi can make anything she designs. We know Galliano and Gaultier can of course. PPP can, Marc Jacobs can… This is simply the standard for excellence in the industry.

I disagree. They didn't make clothes because they were designers. Sewing clothes were not their job or metier. What I'm saying is that knowing how to make a dress don't make you a good designer, there is no necessary cause and effect between those skills. If there was , LVMH would be dragging petit mains to be creative directors. And Maria Disgrazia would be a great designer.

In general, I agree with you with that there seems to be a problem with education in good design, but good design is also not possible without good construction basics. I personally disagree with the notion that fashion is neither an art nor craft, since it can be both whilst also still being a functionally sound piece of art with great design. The best fashion is the ideal marriage between art, craft, and design. Fashion as a form of art is, in my opinion, critically important to culture, but of course, good design should never be overlooked as it seems to be done nowadays.

Also, I do not believe that this is a fair comparison between fashion and architecture. As someone with a background in architectural design, I can attest the responsability is much greater than being a fashion designer, as lives literally depend on it and environmental, contextual, physical, spatial, economic and even legal factors mostly determine it in terms of design. That's why I love fashion, it's far less complex than architecture and allows much more freedom, it makes dreams come true much easier.
All in all, I do agree with you that not being able to hold a pin shouldn't be a factor deciding whether someone is a good designer or not.

There has to be something wrong with the methods or curriculum of those schools. The situation in brasil is not very different, though people also loves a good autodidact history.

We can discuss their relantionship for pages and pages, but I just wanted to show that there is a difference, a singularity, we can't treat design as just art or just craft. Is it between? A mix? Haha again, we can spend hours talking about it. The good thing is to open up the conversation because I think sometimes fashion designers don't do this self reflection. Fashion needs more theorists like architecture has imo, there are historians but where are the theorists? @MulletProof I think I saw you talking about Bourdieu.