Celine F/W 2022.23 Paris

[Frederic01]

CR FASHION BOOK

 

[THD96]

Different scene, same basic b*****.

It's just another parade of elevated APC. He has nothing to say in womenswear, and I'll have more respect for him if he just stops it and focuses on his menswear, where he is still in a league of his own. Not everybody can do both, despite the tremendous success and impact, Phoebe never added a men's line to Céline, because she knows what she is good at.

I find it funny that people consider him a success only to come up with reasons like it's well made and it's a commercial success.
First of all, for his sake, it better be selling, since his whole tenure has been messy since the beginning, and I can't imagine what will happen if it doesn't sell. But commercial success doesn't mean anything, just look at MGC at Dior, are you consider her tenure a success? What does selling Logos Hoodies, t-shirts, baseball hats, etc... really add anything to your legacy?
Second, "it's well made, the quality is everything". For the price they asked, it's better last a hundred years. Just because the standards of the industry are a mess right now doesn't change the fact that these brands should have quality clothes as a bare minimum. Don't get twisted and use that as an excuse for the lack of creativity.

 

[Kimihiro]

His Dior Homme seems like an even better womenswear proposition than what he does since he started womenswear at YSL. At this point it’s beating a dead horse. These are really nice clothes, but they have nothing to say. I’d buy them if I was a girl, but they don’t incite anything emotional. Unlike his menswear where I feel like he has a singular, unique voice compared to whatever travesty most designers are coming up with right now. He’s the menswear designer for me. If maybe he’ll showcase more techniques, experiment with more with silhouettes in his woman it might be better.

I guess that’s why he was hired, to make Celine more institutional, more accessible to the public. They’re hell bent in turning it into a classic maison even with its lack of history. It’s finally selling, so I guess Arnault won’t complain that much.

 

[tricotineacetat]

Different scene, same basic b*****.

It's just another parade of elevated APC. He has nothing to say in womenswear, and I'll have more respect for him if he just stops it and focuses on his menswear, where he is still in a league of his own. Not everybody can do both, despite the tremendous success and impact, Phoebe never added a men's line to Céline, because she knows what she is good at.

I find it funny that people consider him a success only to come up with reasons like it's well made and it's a commercial success.
First of all, for his sake, it better be selling, since his whole tenure has been messy since the beginning, and I can't imagine what will happen if it doesn't sell. But commercial success doesn't mean anything, just look at MGC at Dior, are you consider her tenure a success? What does selling Logos Hoodies, t-shirts, baseball hats, etc... really add anything to your legacy?
Second, "it's well made, the quality is everything". For the price they asked, it's better last a hundred years. Just because the standards of the industry are a mess right now doesn't change the fact that these brands should have quality clothes as a bare minimum. Don't get twisted and use that as an excuse for the lack of creativity.

Not that I consider this collection to be a particularly good one, but for all the criticism you've made - Don't you think you must in that case address that to a lot of luxury brands operating in the more classical hemisphere, too? Brands like Hermès, The Row etc. are not exactly known for their out-of-the-box approach to design and neither are their customers looking for that. Even Jil Sander in her heydeys was hardly any 'inventive' in that regard but the clothes had that *something* at the time that resonated with the zeitgeist and how women wanted to dress.

When you look at a more mature Celine customer (probably in her 40ies to 50ies), that kind of woman doesn't want to wear a look that screams very much that it was *that jacket from FW'22* - She wants her clothes to complement and rejuvenate her and fit into her wardrobe like a staple piece she can wear for 10-20 years time, which a beautifully cut and made suit or a perfecto leather jacket does. My personal point of criticism is that Hedi's Celine, unlike his Saint Laurent, does tend to look more conservative with all the collarless boucle jackets and the gold hardware everywhere - While this 'borrowed from my mom's closet' looks good on a young girl, it will make a more mature woman easily look older and more conservative.

 

[Lola701]

My issue overall with Hedi’s womenswear is that it’s not distinctive enough of it make sense. I think that a man who likes Hedi’s tailoring or clothes cannot find an alternative elsewhere. Saint Laurent still produce things he did simply because it’s undeniable that what Vaccarello does ain’t it.

I bought my first Hedi suit from his DH FW2006 but the reality is that his proposition at Dior Homme or YSL was only his. He designs with a particular body type in mind so all his eccentricities works for that body type. When he does his waisted pants or wide leg pants, you need a certain body type to wear them and a certain presence to pull that off.

I feel like his womenswear standout in total look. Except for the heavily embellished pieces like the gold cardigan, I feel like you don’t have to buy his Celine to achieve the look and that’s the difference between his mens and womenswear that bothers me a little bit.

Banality de luxe is fine on itself. But I think the difference between from Hermes and Hedi is that the designer attached in this case is as big as the brand. Hermes by Margiela, Eric Bergère, Gaultier or Lemaire followed some principles of classicism and the mystique around the house is bigger than the talents there in a way.

A lot of Parisienne achieved the Hedi by Celine look by wearing Ralph Lauren, Levi’s and Burberry.
That’s maybe the problem with presenting this on the runway show. Because he could propose something really elevated and sells those classics in the stores. Carine Roitfeld wore a blazer from him on French TV, it was perfect! He can make clothes but I need more in terms of fashion…
If Ralph Lauren can elevate his very conservative look, Hedi can too!

 

[Nomar]

Coming to a Zara near you!

 

[Phuel]

My issue overall with Hedi’s womenswear is that it’s not distinctive enough of it make sense. I think that a man who likes Hedi’s tailoring or clothes cannot find an alternative elsewhere. Saint Laurent still produce things he did simply because it’s undeniable that what Vaccarello does ain’t it.

I bought my first Hedi suit from his DH FW2006 but the reality is that his proposition at Dior Homme or YSL was only his. He designs with a particular body type in mind so all his eccentricities works for that body type. When he does his waisted pants or wide leg pants, you need a certain body type to wear them and a certain presence to pull that off.

I feel like his womenswear standout in total look. Except for the heavily embellished pieces like the gold cardigan, I feel like you don’t have to buy his Celine to achieve the look and that’s the difference between his mens and womenswear that bothers me a little bit.

Banality de luxe is fine on itself. But I think the difference between from Hermes and Hedi is that the designer attached in this case is as big as the brand. Hermes by Margiela, Eric Bergère, Gaultier or Lemaire followed some principles of classicism and the mystique around the house is bigger than the talents there in a way.

A lot of Parisienne achieved the Hedi by Celine look by wearing Ralph Lauren, Levi’s and Burberry.
That’s maybe the problem with presenting this on the runway show. Because he could propose something really elevated and sells those classics in the stores. Carine Roitfeld wore a blazer from him on French TV, it was perfect! He can make clothes but I need more in terms of fashion…
If Ralph Lauren can elevate his very conservative look, Hedi can too!

Interesting you referred Ralph Lauren. I see the best of Ralph in this as well.

However, as much as Ralph as maintained a steadfast confidence and relevance in high-end status (despite all his consumer-end offshoots), his designs are always tradtional, conservative and classic in every sense: I never see anything of his elevated from that template Whereas with this offering, it does have touches of the unexpected— like the velvety leather bodycon mini dress in caramel. Nadege’s Hermes could never— and Anthony would have turned such a proposal into the predictable kinky, slinky patented dominatrix’s signature.

Very few brands and designers are able to offer such a supreme design vocabulary for both their women’s and men’s with such luxe versatility as he’s been able to recently. With the women’s here, it’s easygoing, effortless luxe and glam with teh attitude of sportwear. And with the men’s, it’s androgynous high glam— of which, women can easily wear as well.

 

[velvetandsilk]

His vision is a rock version of the classic Celine from the '70s. The main problem is that Phoebe Philo created a strong new aesthetic that gave rise to the idea that Celine was a fashion house, in reality previously was a luxury ready-to-wear sportswear company. Second problem - accessories in Phoebe's time were really good. Now they can't design it-bag.

When he does his waisted pants or wide leg pants, you need a certain body type to wear them and a certain presence to pull that off.

The waisted pants are classic from 70s Celine.

anothermagazine.com

 

[Lola701]

His vision is a rock version of the classic Celine from the '70s. The main problem is that Phoebe Philo created a strong new aesthetic that gave rise to the idea that Celine was a fashion house, in reality previously was a luxury ready-to-wear sportswear company. Second problem - accessories in Phoebe's time were really good. Now they can't design it-bag.


The waisted pants are classic from 70s Celine.

anothermagazine.com

I was talking about his menswear…
But tbh, Celine was like Georges Rech or Weill. LVMH has slightly elevated the status of Celine but it wasn’t like Chloe or YSL.

That look is classic French fashion from the 70’s, not necessarily Celine in a way.

 

[jeanclaude]

Emptiness was never this expensive...this is like NFTs: paying a lot of money for a .jpg file just to show that you can afford it.

 

[volft]

It never ceases to amaze me how people who will never be a consumer of the products think that they know better than Hedi. People who don't shop retail Celine are not the people who Hedi is speaking to. All you have to do is read Hedi's interviews to understand his philosophy. Most of the criticisms are coming from a place of not understanding Hedi.

Similar to a lot of the criticism for his Saint Laurent for being pedestrian, all of this is ready-to-wear at the end of the day. People have been conditioned and brainwashed to have hyper unrealistic expectations for ready-to-wear presentations. This is something that Hedi has spoken out and criticized.

I think the separation of Celine and Celine Homme was a genius move. Celine Homme is very unisex and attracts women who don't resonate as much with Hedi's Celine aesthetic.

People can say they don't want to buy it all they want, but Celine's ready-to-wear is selling like hot cakes compared to his women's Saint Laurent ready-to-wear. Anyone who doesn't see this has just been living under a rock.

Hedi has successfully positioned Celine to be part of the wardrobe of modern royalty.

Princess Charlene of Monaco

 

[Lola701]

^^
I mean good for them. Me not wanting to buy it has more to do with being a former Celine customer than thinking that I know better than Hedi. And more, I actually respect him as a designer so, I consider my opinion as valid as anyone else.

Virginie’s Chanel sells fairly well. I don’t like her vision so I haven’t purchased any RTW since she took over. She has positioned her Chanel to be part of the rich and famous… So maybe I shouldn’t give my opinion because it’s what it is…

We are critiquing runway shows. What those women wears in their everyday life is not relevant in the conversation.

 

[susseinmcswanny]

I think it is normal to have opinions on things you aren't exactly involved in. There should be no haute couture threads here if it weren't the case lol.

In terms of clothes, there are nice classic things for you if you have an exorbitant amount of money to blow. A lot of the garments available are extremely versatile and can be styled a million different ways in all types of contexts. In terms of "fashion" it really is boring and indistinct af. Jeans and turtleneck with a necklace styled like The Rock... I don't think it looks bad, it's just I would expect some sort of flavor if he's presenting the essence of his ideas. If the essence is a banal rich study abroad in Paris college student then bravo I guess lol.

 

[volft]

Here is an except from one of Hedi's interviews:

By now it is obvious that your tenure at Saint Laurent has been a complete success in terms of sales, influence, and acclaim. But at the time did the criticism make you second guess yourself? What gave you the strength to stick to your course?

Quite the contrary, my determination was only stronger. If there is no reaction, it means nobody cares. If nobody cares, then we have a problem.

Hedi welcomes negative reactions because having people not care is even worse. Personally, I wouldn't bother giving the time of day for things I know I'm not interested in, but that's just me.

 

[Frederic01]

People can say they don't want to buy it all they want, but Celine's ready-to-wear is selling like hot cakes compared to his women's Saint Laurent ready-to-wear. Anyone who doesn't see this has just been living under a rock.

Do you work for Celine HQ in France? Please enlighten us as to how well the sales are of Celine under Hedi Slimane compared to Phoebe Philo, because all we ever hear at those LVMH press conferences is, essentially, fluff. Whereas when they speak about the figures that Dior is doing, they give clear numbers. It's rather curious don't you think?

If Celine was doing so well, I would think they would be giving us the numbers, no? This is LVMH we're talking about.

 

[Uemarasan]

It still amazes me that it’s 2022 and there are still people who think that commercial success somehow nullifies much aesthetic criticism.

Great, Slimane’s Celine is popular and successful. You know what else is popular and successful? Superhero movies, Starbucks, the Twilight books, the Kardashians.

 

[dior_couture1245]

It still amazes me that it’s 2022 and there are still people who think that commercial success somehow nullifies much aesthetic criticism.

Great, Slimane’s Celine is popular and successful. You know what else is popular and successful? Superhero movies, Starbucks, the Twilight books, the Kardashians.

Yes - but I still think Slimane's work gets unfair criticism.

I have absolutely no delusions that I should be judging his work as a "creative proposition." This is merchandise. And what's wrong with that? But I really don't think that it's cynical, Marvel-level merchandise, truthfully. Slimane's clothes are nicely proportioned, beautifully fabricated, classically styled and very well made. That's not cynical. That's providing customers lots of versatile, staple pieces to own for many years without them going out of style or looking dated. And maybe best of all, Hedi NEVER burdens his clothes with gimmicks. I know that doesn't make for exciting viewing, but it is exactly what a lot of people would prefer to wear.

I am the kind of fashion consumer who absolutely thirsts for the fantasy and the drama and the grandeur of what fashion can be...nobody is a bigger Galliano Dior fan than me...I can still watch McQueen shows and get chills...I can get lost in the details of Olivier Theyskens' Rochas...Lacroix Couture still makes my heart skip a beat..but ultimately, that's not the way I dress, nor do I want to dress that way. Both ends of the spectrum are vitally important for fashion and both need to exist.

 

[GivenchyAddict]

After Hedi defending himself on Twitter, here he is among us .

 

[Norden]

Great, Slimane’s Celine is popular and successful. You know what else is popular and successful? Superhero movies, Starbucks, the Twilight books, the Kardashians.

haha so true.

His Celine kinda works. But it doesn’t have the same cultural impact SL had or DH. I think it’s the coolest banal brand there is, so kudos to that.

 

[jeanclaude]

Ok, let´s say you are a rich woman. You are craving for status symbols to flaunt your money. You love luxury. Then you see this:

A Chanel-esque jacket, "mom" jeans, black jumper, Hermès "inspired" handbag, gold necklace and black boots.

The question here is "Why buying this at Celine?" You can buy the jacket at Chanel (the real one!), the handbag at Hermès (the real one!), the jumper at Loro Piana (for example), the necklace at Cartier; and the boots at Louboutin. Those jeans can be bought literally everywhere.

So...if you can afford to buy this whole look, what´s the point of buying it at Celine?? If you want to flaunt your money, while wearing normal clothes...what is the logic of not going to Chanel/Hermès/etc to get the real versions??? Is your chauffeur busy or something?