Che Guevara
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ok, so here my two cents...i think people wear it because it's an amazing image which is so memorable. it's a pretty cool image but people don't really get it. Che is an amazing guy and i hope his legacy lives on in a better way than being on t-shirts.
good thing you're becoming a teacher ...faust....
i'm sure you'll set any future generations who cross your path straight on these and many other philosphical ideals...
hang on to those ideals, my friend.... B) [/b][/quote]
thanks, softgrey
Oh really, Mr. Reznor? The NIN logo is no different from Che's image in terms of adoption. I point this out in the spirit of this discussion only, not to be a wise-***. Would it be immoral for a post-"Closer" bandwagon fan who doesn't know the tracklisting to "Broken" to wear a freshly purchased concert shirt at the mall? Of course not. I don't think Trent or Che would care in the least. [/b][/quote]
For the sake of discussion, my knowledge of Trent's music is as deep and informed as it can get. I did not put up the logo on my Avatar because I think it looks cool. I put it up, because his art is important to me. So are the quotes and the link in my signature (by the people whose work I know and respect). If I did not deem them important, and not only for me, but for others also, my Avatar and sig would be empty.
Would it be immoral for someone who doesn't know Trent's music to wear his t-shirt - no, but it would be shallow, don't you think? Imagine someone like that being stopped in the street by someone to have a discussion about Trent's music, and he'd just stand there, dumbfounded and embarassed...
Anyway, Trent is a talented musician, but he is not a revolutionary who devoted his life and death to fighting for a just cause (or what he thought was a just cause) - there is a difference.
Love
Sometimes a t-shirt with a picture you like on the front is just a t-shirt. I don't think that wearing a t-shirt with a picture of a dead man's face on it is such a huge deal. If you laugh at those girls because you think they're unaware of who Che is, maybe you should take a look at yourself and everything you have purchased in your life. If you want to play holier-than-thou over a t-shirt, you need to get over it. Everytime you laugh at someone for their supposed ignorence when you fail to inform them, it becomes partially your fault.
Apologies if this sounds overly bitchy, it's really not supposed to.
To others an Avatar is a simple utility for recognition combined with a light expression about themselves. There's no requirement for a deep understanding. I think a tee-shirt, Che or otherwise, is a similar instrument.
I don't think it's shallow. I think it's indicative of the natural protection we afford the things we like and a certain superiority that comes with holding knowledge and the dues (i.e., seeing them when they played clubs, tracking down "Fixed," etc.) we paid to get to that knowledge.
In the Che tee shirt case, the dues could be academic investments or better yet personal experience or soul-searching. To see someone display the image simply because it's trendy infringes on this. Or it's just plain annoying to see the herd mentality.
My point is that I don't buy this. It's not the novices' fault that critics expect more from them, especially when it comes to clothes.
I know kids whose lives have been affected by Trent's music far more than anyone I know who was touched by the ideology of Che. Simply put, Che isn't tangible. He's more myth and symbol.
Either way, I totally respect your opinion on this issue.
This is a habit here in Brazil. Every teenager who thinks rebellion=communism wears a tee with his face on it. I find it ridiculous not because of who he presumably "was", but because Che Guevara was a pathetic man who stood for a revolution that brought poverty, misery and death to Cuba. The only thing that stops people from having Fidel on a tee is because the fact that he is a criminal is common knowledge. But it never stopped them from having Mao-Tsé on it instead.
To others an Avatar is a simple utility for recognition combined with a light expression about themselves. There's no requirement for a deep understanding. I think a tee-shirt, Che or otherwise, is a similar instrument.
I don't think it's shallow. I think it's indicative of the natural protection we afford the things we like and a certain superiority that comes with holding knowledge and the dues (i.e., seeing them when they played clubs, tracking down "Fixed," etc.) we paid to get to that knowledge.
In the Che tee shirt case, the dues could be academic investments or better yet personal experience or soul-searching. To see someone display the image simply because it's trendy infringes on this. Or it's just plain annoying to see the herd mentality.
My point is that I don't buy this. It's not the novices' fault that critics expect more from them, especially when it comes to clothes.
I know kids whose lives have been affected by Trent's music far more than anyone I know who was touched by the ideology of Che. Simply put, Che isn't tangible. He's more myth and symbol.
Either way, I totally respect your opinion on this issue. [/b][/quote]
That's why I like tFS. No unreasonable shouting, but a good discussion.
oh. my. god.Originally posted by Betty Boop@Mar 30th, 2004 - 2:50 pm
50% of all girls in my collage wear t-shirts or have bags with Che Guevara on them... most of them think that he is the singer in Rage against the machine!!stupid stupid people!!
Its almost like putting Fidel Castro, Hitler or Lenin on a shirt and almost idolizing them. I'm sure he is turning over in his grave, i'm sure hes turning over happy that hes getting so much attention.
If you put Lenin on a shirt, your going to be ostracized. If you put Guevara on your shirt, your a fashionista.
Its disgusting.
oh. my. god.Originally posted by fuj+Mar 31st, 2004 - 11:57 pm--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fuj @ Mar 31st, 2004 - 11:57 pm)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-Betty Boop@Mar 30th, 2004 - 2:50 pm
50% of all girls in my collage wear t-shirts or have bags with Che Guevara on them... most of them think that he is the singer in Rage against the machine!!
Its almost like putting Fidel Castro, Hitler or Lenin on a shirt and almost idolizing them. I'm sure he is turning over in his grave, i'm sure hes turning over happy that hes getting so much attention.
If you put Lenin on a shirt, your going to be ostracized. If you put Guevara on your shirt, your a fashionista.
Its disgusting. [/b][/quote]
I second every word. As I said before, what stops people from putting Fidel on a tee isn't stopping them from having Mao-Tse instead. Both criminals, both "icons".ultramarine
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Hum ... I'm not quite comfortable about comparing "Che" Guevara with Lenin or Fidel or Hitler ... it just isn't the same thing .. at all ...
In here -Costa Rica-, Che has been populr from the 70's ..he's got quite a fanbase in here ... in most colleges, like 80% of the students know detailed information on him and wear stuff with his profile/name ... but it's because of the deep comunist roots that are in our -state- colleges ... I know a girl who truly can herself a fan ... on the day of Che's B-day, she throws a party and stuff ... my mum goes to Cuba often cuz she gets a skin treatment in there and she brings LOTS of souvernirs from Cuba on every trip ...
Now ... about wearing him, I find it offensive if someone wears him and has no idea who's that person ... but you have to keep in mind that people may see a Che t-shirt now either as an objet d'art or a way to feel validated by the masses ... whatever ... I own a cuban original tee and beret ... won't see me wearing it, though! Rather enjoy their RUM!
In here -Costa Rica-, Che has been populr from the 70's ..he's got quite a fanbase in here ... in most colleges, like 80% of the students know detailed information on him and wear stuff with his profile/name ... but it's because of the deep comunist roots that are in our -state- colleges ... I know a girl who truly can herself a fan ... on the day of Che's B-day, she throws a party and stuff ... my mum goes to Cuba often cuz she gets a skin treatment in there and she brings LOTS of souvernirs from Cuba on every trip ...
Now ... about wearing him, I find it offensive if someone wears him and has no idea who's that person ... but you have to keep in mind that people may see a Che t-shirt now either as an objet d'art or a way to feel validated by the masses ... whatever ... I own a cuban original tee and beret ... won't see me wearing it, though! Rather enjoy their RUM!
LolitaLuxe
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madonna said she modeled herself after che for the cover of american life. 
This discussion caused me to wake up this morning with these lyrics going through my head:
"He looked a lot like Che Guevara, drove a diesel van
Kept his gun in quiet seclusion, such a humble man
The only survivor of the National People's Gang
Panic in Detroit, I asked for an autograph"
-- from Panic in Detroit by David Bowie
I guess Che's image has been an icon for a long time.
"He looked a lot like Che Guevara, drove a diesel van
Kept his gun in quiet seclusion, such a humble man
The only survivor of the National People's Gang
Panic in Detroit, I asked for an autograph"
-- from Panic in Detroit by David Bowie
I guess Che's image has been an icon for a long time.
I know all about this - I'm from Brazil and it's the same thing down here. As someone who's surrounded by communists and leftist propaganda, I'm sick of them and their icons and their false motto of "egualité" for everyone. We have a president that came from the Labour Party and he's a total failure. I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but I don't like communism or communists at all.Originally posted by blumarine@Apr 1st, 2004 - 4:13 am
Hum ... I'm not quite comfortable about comparing "Che" Guevara with Lenin or Fidel or Hitler ... it just isn't the same thing .. at all ...
In here -Costa Rica-, Che has been populr from the 70's ..he's got quite a fanbase in here ... in most colleges, like 80% of the students know detailed information on him and wear stuff with his profile/name ... but it's because of the deep comunist roots that are in our -state- colleges ... I know a girl who truly can herself a fan ... on the day of Che's B-day, she throws a party and stuff ... my mum goes to Cuba often cuz she gets a skin treatment in there and she brings LOTS of souvernirs from Cuba on every trip ...
Now ... about wearing him, I find it offensive if someone wears him and has no idea who's that person ... but you have to keep in mind that people may see a Che t-shirt now either as an objet d'art or a way to feel validated by the masses ... whatever ... I own a cuban original tee and beret ... won't see me wearing it, though! Rather enjoy their RUM!
Dictators are always dictators, either from the left or from the right wing. Fidel is a dictator, and Che fought with him to achieve this regime. I'm not comfortable with these icons and I'll fight against them till I die. That's my 2 cents.
Originally posted by blumarine@Apr 1st, 2004 - 1:13 am
Hum ... I'm not quite comfortable about comparing "Che" Guevara with Lenin or Fidel or Hitler ... it just isn't the same thing .. at all ...
In here -Costa Rica-, Che has been populr from the 70's ..he's got quite a fanbase in here ... in most colleges, like 80% of the students know detailed information on him and wear stuff with his profile/name ... but it's because of the deep comunist roots that are in our -state- colleges ... I know a girl who truly can herself a fan ... on the day of Che's B-day, she throws a party and stuff ... my mum goes to Cuba often cuz she gets a skin treatment in there and she brings LOTS of souvernirs from Cuba on every trip ...
Now ... about wearing him, I find it offensive if someone wears him and has no idea who's that person ... but you have to keep in mind that people may see a Che t-shirt now either as an objet d'art or a way to feel validated by the masses ... whatever ... I own a cuban original tee and beret ... won't see me wearing it, though! Rather enjoy their RUM!
oh no, i know Che isnt on the same level as hilter in terms of damage or distruction. I feel like he shared alot of his ideas with those men i mentioned - for starters, communism, thats why i named them.
But thanks for giving me insight into another part of the world, i appreciate it. My views are obviously a lot different because I'm American.
ultramarine
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You're very welcome!Originally posted by fuj@Apr 2nd, 2004 - 12:13 am
oh no, i know Che isnt on the same level as hilter in terms of damage or distruction. I feel like he shared alot of his ideas with those men i mentioned - for starters, communism, thats why i named them.
But thanks for giving me insight into another part of the world, i appreciate it. My views are obviously a lot different because I'm American.
And another question .. you sure you're acquainted with Che Guevara's life?
I know that history books differ from country to country, but I can't help to sympathize w/him .. he was bringing down a dictatorship (a cruel one) ... and his ideas were to liberate and unite latin america .. just like one of our latin americans heros Simon Bolivar ...
In the US I dunno how does his phillisophy is treated ..but online there are many pages from the US ... I guess that some people do wear his stuff because they sympathize with his ideas!
i really dissagree with having Che Guevara on the same level as
Hitler.. this is a bit too much as for the trend, it sure 'lowers' the status of the political figure of Che Guevara but still, it shows a subconsious 'hope' for bringing up kids that could introduce some kind of idealistic, revolutionary partiotic vision in our quite 'flat' western societies.
Che has been very popular with teens since the '70s where i live, he's an icon of youth culure and he's very respected for his political vision.
We certainly do not consider him as a "criminal",
we see him as an idealist, a visionary patriot, an anti-establishment hero.
Mao, Che, even Lenin are popular culture themes for young 'rebels' in Europe
even though some actually wear those images out of sheer irony
and with a quirky on-your-face attitude.
(we dont have the Fidel Castro trend yet but i wouldnt be surprised, his views are though to be brave and honest over here)
i can clearly see why the "che trend" may be concidered 'dangerous' or upsetting in the US..
If one wears the t-shirt may one day try to figure out who the person is and why he's there on the t-shirt, why his face comes up on a rap video and this may be an eye-opener for those few who may go into any kind of research.
Before getting upset, people should see the reasons behind this kind of trends and try to 'ment' the cause -not the effect- behind this.
anyway.. to each their own and peace to the world.
i sorta meant a bit more that the image is really memorable...sorta up there with andy's marylin really for that form of art. i mean, i don't actually really care that people don't know who he is...but i mean, in america and some other places wouldn't people be judged upon by wearing such a top? i mean, hehe, in oz i would defs where one, it's an iconic image. anyways...
it's not like america are going to be pushing for a democratic cuba any time soon, hehe, they're holding prisoners of war in guantanamo...and hey i do end up agreeing with, it's no big deal really at the end of the day.
