Louis Vuitton Nazi Scandal

[paprika_hiccup]

Originally posted by banana@Jun 3rd, 2004 - 9:13 pm
I don't own any LV bags. And yes I have a PC but so does everyone else on TFS who doesn't use a mac. I really don't see the point in this discussion. What "responsiblity" do you want us to admit to? Why slam only one company over their collaboration with the Nazis and not others? It doesn't make any sense.

Whenever a brand is no longer trendy among a certain group they seem to make up some sort of ethical reason why they should no longer be supported. It's like all those people who boycotted the GAP over their use of child labour yet they would wear clothes by other companies who do the exact same thing. If you don't like LV for your own reasons, fine. But don't sit at your IBM computer complaining about how people shouldn't be supporting the Nazis.

I don't want you admit any kind of responsibility, banana- I am not talking about you here. Have I even suggested boycotting the products of the IBM or LV?

As I said I am not of the "everyone else is doing it so why can't I" school of thought. I think all companies that collaborated with Hilter should publicly accept responsibility for their involvement. It is a harsh reality, but they did play a role in the death of millions of Jews. IBM has failed to do this, but that should not set some kind of precedent on how to deal with issues like these.

LV bags are IMO the ultimate example of a status objects. They would not be much without the LV monograms stamped all over them- a brown canvas bag with leather handles? The consumer is buying the name Louis Vuitton- the history of that name. Look how many brands have tried to make it big with their own monograms and failed? They did not have the history that LV does behind them, to hold them up as an enduring symbol of luxury, craftsmanship, yada, yada.

And softgrey,
I see where you are coming from, but I don't look at it in the sense of expecting innocent people to accept the blame or punishment for something they didn't do.
I am not talking about individual people here; I think it is the responsibility of the company to accept the entire history of the name they are selling. I know it will prob never happen, but that is still what I feel.

It often takes a long time and alot of distance from an event to be able to say "what we did was wrong".

 

[purplelucrezia]

Originally posted by paprika_hiccup@Jun 3rd, 2004 - 9:51 pm
LV bags are IMO the ultimate example of a status objects. They would not be much without the LV monograms stamped all over them- a brown canvas bag with leather handles? The consumer is buying the name Louis Vuitton- the history of that name. Look how many brands have tried to make it big with their own monograms and failed? They did not have the history that LV does behind them, to hold them up as an enduring symbol of luxury, craftsmanship, yada, yada.

Incidently, that's been decreasing a bit of late, thanks to all those knock-offs. I'm not sure whether it really makes any difference though. I agree with everything that you've said here as well. The entire attitude of laughing things off honestly sets a disturbing precendent. They need to address the past in order to move on.

 

[brian]

 

[brian]

Originally posted by paprika_hiccup@Jun 3rd, 2004 - 8:51 pm
LV bags are IMO the ultimate example of a status objects. They would not be much without the LV monograms stamped all over them- a brown canvas bag with leather handles? The consumer is buying the name Louis Vuitton- the history of that name. Look how many brands have tried to make it big with their own monograms and failed? They did not have the history that LV does behind them, to hold them up as an enduring symbol of luxury, craftsmanship, yada, yada.

I agree!

...CELINE'S IS HIDEOUS!!

 

[Glamourina]

That's really horrible that LV did this, but think about it, how many other companies did the same thing? I'm not saying it makes it right but if you boycott LV you're going to have to do the same for every company that sympathized with the Nazis. And then once you've done that, why stop there? Is it fair to boycott them and continue to use Japanese cars, since the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, or go see Roman Polanksi films, since he allegedly raped a minor girl? I mean think about it, you'd have to cut out so much and pretty much live in a cave. And besides, is it fair to punish the employees of LV for something that happened before they were even born? Most of the people working there are probably just as outraged as we are but are just trying to make a living. If a worldwide LV boycott began, the heads of the company wouldn't suffer, the peons working in the factories would. Just my $.02

By the way I personally find LV highly overrated...

 

[Lena]

Originally posted by Spike413+Jun 3rd, 2004 - 11:56 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Spike413 @ Jun 3rd, 2004 - 11:56 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-softgrey@Jun 3rd, 2004 - 11:11 am
amusing...since the vast majority of the women i know and have known...(mostly from Long Island) who carry LV and own several...are jewish...isn't it ironic...

I know what you mean, it's the same as all the Jewish women in my neighborhood owning Mercedes and BMWs, now I can add LV to the list.......gotta love it!

I don't really understand why this is being brought up. What is being accomplished by it? [/b][/quote]
it got brought up while LV was celebrating thier 150 years of luxury..
one of the journalists looked closer to the history of the brand and bingo

whoever helped out the Nazis to achieve their purposes is guilty for
cooperation with a dark force in history of humanity.
i dont believe collaborators to rude regimes are 'excused' in anyway...
including those that are acting as MONSTERS in our very days.

there is no excuse in my book, people should
always behold complete responsibility for their actions.

Of course there may be other reasons why the LVMH story is emerging
at this exact moment in time. Obviously has to do with the Market,
business opponents of LVMH etc etc.. will it work at all ?

hmm think about the jewish princesses, they might soon avoid spending
their money on those $$$ LV bags.

 

[ahhGucci]

You have to ask yourself, is LV responsible for something that the family members of Louis Vuitton supported? The people who were truly responsible don't work there anymore.
But history is history, and this is not something people are going to forget (let alone forgive)

 

[Mutterlein]

Originally posted by Lena@Jun 4th, 2004 - 1:59 am


whoever helped out the Nazis to achieve their purposes is guilty for
cooperation with a dark force in history of humanity.
i dont believe collaborators to rude regimes are 'excused' in anyway...
including those that are acting as MONSTERS in our very days.

there is no excuse in my book, people should
always behold complete responsibility for their actions.

Not to start an argument or anything but you must keep in mind that there were countless organizations and groups that collaborated with the Nazi regime. I am not excusing what they helped the nazi's acheive but keep in mind that by paying taxes you are aiding Bush's agenda...would that make you accountable for the war in iraq?...just to put things into perspective.



And if we are going to single out war attrocities why not comment on Japanese Imperialism and how it almost destroyed Korea, China, the Philipines, and southeast asia in it's own efforts for growth and expansion. Japan has never issued an apology to Korea for it's occupation and total r*ping of it's resources, culture, and people. Should we hold all Japanese citizens accountable for the wrongdoings of their ancestors. I mean they are benefitting from them.

Should we hold all white american citizens accountable for the enslavement of africans...they are benefitting from it?

Should we hold all americans responsible for the murders and resettling of native Americans and the stealing of their land? They are benefitting from it.

of course not


So that is the flawed logic I see in blindly singling out one attrocity and not any others. People can easily denounce nazis and louis vuitton but easily overlook anything that challenges their own comfort and the mainstream.

 

[pennyfei]

What else besides collaborating do you expect LV to do when the Nazis ruled paris? unless you want your store get razed by the German Panzers and your employees tossed into Auschwitz.
Nothing surprising to me! No big deal since they did it for their own survival!

 

[pennyfei]

Mutterlein, good argument!

 

[softgrey]

another piece of the article with views froms the jewish council and lvmh...apparently the book is being ignored by the press and sort of swept under the rug...but even the jewish community leaders concede that it would be ridiculous to punish the company for the sins of people long dead...

quote..
LMVH says the wartime period does not warrant 50 pages of the book.

"We don't deny the facts, but regrettably the author has exaggerated the Vichy episode," an LVMH spokesman told the satirical magazine Le Canard Enchainé, the only French publication to mention the book.

He added: "We haven't put any pressure on anyone. If the journalists want to censor themselves, then that suits us fine."

*******Louis Vuitton is concerned about upsetting the powerful Jewish constituency in America, which has already conducted one inquiry into the company.

Michel Zaoui, a lawyer and spokesman for the Jewish council in France, said it was the first he had heard of the book or the allegations.

"It is extremely important that these matters are publicised and known by the general public.

*********"However, since the people involved are now dead, it would seem ridiculous to organise a boycott of Louis Vuitton goods. We would not want that. If they were still involved in anti-semitic activities, that would be different.

 

[Lena]

i agree with your basic points Mutterlein,
still..and once again.. >>>>
the fact that so many people or companies have helped -or have prospered- by the exploitation of others stays as a black point in my book, but we are not talking politics here, so i will not go in dangerous waters...
all kinds of human abuse are one and the same to me, regardless of who
is the wrong-doer.

but i will need to remind you -and myself-
we are talking fashion & politics, so i will try to stay on topic.

Most of French fashion houses that were doing great just before the war,
went out of business when the Nazis took power.
Were they idiots?
Were they patriots?
Were they brave enough to say no to the Big Nazi money
while risking all they had by refusing their couture 'services'
to the 'occupators' ?

I may be the only one here being annoyed by the news regarding
the Vichy connections of LV, but i will hold my argument and i hope
i'm allowed to. To me, we all are responsible for our choices.

 

[sbbbjm]

Originally posted by Lena@Jun 4th, 2004 - 1:59 am
hmm think about the jewish princesses, they might soon avoid spending
their money on those $$$ LV bags.

correction -- its called a JAP - Jewish American Princess, as my friend Lena likes to call herself, hehe

 

[Lena]

Originally posted by sbbbjm+Jun 4th, 2004 - 9:49 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (sbbbjm @ Jun 4th, 2004 - 9:49 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Lena@Jun 4th, 2004 - 1:59 am
hmm think about the jewish princesses, they might soon avoid spending
their money on those $$$ LV bags.

correction -- its called a JAP - Jewish American Princess, as my friend Lena likes to call herself, hehe [/b][/quote]
ta-raaa braking you the news,
there are jewish pricesses outside America too

 

[Mutterlein]

Originally posted by Lena@Jun 4th, 2004 - 3:43 pm
i agree with your basic points Mutterlein,
still..and once again.. >>>>
the fact that so many people or companies have helped -or have prospered- by the exploitation of others stays as a black point in my book, but we are not talking politics here, so i will not go in dangerous waters...
all kinds of human abuse are one and the same to me, regardless of who
is the wrong-doer.

but i will need to remind you -and myself-
we are talking fashion & politics, so i will try to stay on topic.

Most of French fashion houses that were doing great just before the war,
went out of business when the Nazis took power.
Were they idiots?
Were they patriots?
Were they brave enough to say no to the Big Nazi money
while risking all they had by refusing their couture 'services'
to the 'occupators' ?

I may be the only one here being annoyed by the news regarding
the Vichy connections of LV, but i will hold my argument and i hope
i'm allowed to. To me, we all are responsible for our choices.

I really wonder how much business was lost by not servicing an audience that wasn't there in the first place?

Maybe you do agree with my basic points but I think you missed them.

 

[Lena]

you'd be amazed on the money the Nazis (and their women) spend on luxuries etc. there was always clientelle for fashion, even during war.. or to say
much more during the war.

and i certainly havent missed your well-made points

 

[paprika_hiccup]

While surely there were many other organizations making deals with the Nazis during the war, this article deals with a direct and specific relationship b/w LV and the Vichy regime. Here is a chunk of the article--

From historical archives she discovered that Louis Vuitton had a store on the ground floor of a fabulous property, the Hotel du Parc, in Vichy where Pétain set up his puppet government. While the other shopkeepers, including the jewellers Van Cleef & Arpels, were shut down, Vuitton was the only one allowed to stay.

Bonvicini says she talked to surviving family members and found that Vuitton's grandson, Gaston, the wartime head of the company, had instructed his eldest son, Henry, to forge links with the Pétain regime to keep the business going.

Henry, a regular at the local cafe frequented by the Gestapo, was one of the first Frenchmen to be decorated by the Nazi-backed government for his loyalty and his efforts for the regime.

But the most damaging allegation is that the family set up a factory dedicated to producing artefacts glorifying Pétain, including more than 2,500 busts, a fact not mentioned in any of its business records.

"Part of the collaboration was due to the family's obsession with the survival of the company, and part down to the fact that there was a certain sympathy with the regime's rightwing views," the author said.

I think its certainly stretching it to say that I, as an American taxpayer, am aiding Bush's agenda in Iraq like LV aided the Nazis during the war. If I were producing mass quantities of propaganda in my basement specifically for G Bush to distribute throughout the world, than we would prob be in the same boat.

And for pennyfei's comments- LV did not work with the Nazi regime out of fear of Aushwitz. It was done for $$$$$ .

Of course there are many countries/ethnic groups whoa re in some way benefitting from the awful actions of their precesors, but they are not overtly selling themselves as a symbol, as both an ideal and a physical monogram, to the world the way LV is.

I don't think that I am turning a blind all to all the other atrocities in the world, but this is a fashion forum and I'll try to stick to LV for now.

And Lena- you are def not the only one annoyed

 

[paprika_hiccup]

 

[Lena]

Originally posted by paprika_hiccup@Jun 4th, 2004 - 11:00 pm

on the point paprica

 

[Spacemiu]

Originally posted by Lena+Jun 4th, 2004 - 11:10 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lena @ Jun 4th, 2004 - 11:10 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-paprika_hiccup@Jun 4th, 2004 - 11:00 pm

on the point paprica [/b][/quote]
yup