New Yorker story on Hedi Slimane and Designer Rivalries

[Pastry]

all right, by 'baby food' i think they mean apple sauce....i love apple sauce, and so do many othersB)

 

[rach2jlc]

By "baby food" I think that they mean "large steak dinners with potatos and wine and a big slice of cake afterwards."

Not really, of course, but I think that if they meant "apple sauce" they would have said "apple sauce."

John

 

[Fade to Black]

Perhaps, one can say, Raf has a wider vocabulary and application to his tailoring...everything from the knits, overcoats, and pants is masterfully cut...but Dior Homme to me is just the suits and jeans...everything else is filler. The suits and jeans is where Hedi's golden touch reinvented such classics.

 

[tricotineacetat]

First of all, I hope it is clear that I do not reduce Raf solely on sweatshirts and cut-off jerseys, I think it is clear that his mainline collection is becoming more mature now, at least, that´s what the tendency is like now.

I have seen the winter collection in person and admit that it is indeed very, very nice, yet not entirely his own, the strong 2-in-1 jackets originally being an idea that Hussein Chalayan already did in A/W 2005 (I added a picture for your reference, it´s basically the same concept). The blazers are crisp, but the construction of average, not exceptional quality - at least that´s what I could feel from the touch of the shoulder pads and canvassing. Call me ignorant, but I do not see how the tailoring could get any better in terms of construction as with Hedi Slimane, from the shoulde rpads to the canvassing to the fabrics.

I think it´s not only his appointment at Jil Sander that helped Raf to get some additional attention but also the absence of Helmut Lang on the Parisian schedule - for many seasons, Raf had been using fabrics that Helmut Lang introduced before, such as the chintzed suiting and shirting fabrics, as well as some that had a background in sports performance. Who could blame him though, as Helmut´s were of brilliant quality and developed under much different financial circumstances?

I think menswear these days is somewhat reduced to Hedi and Raf being the sole reinventors in their field, the slim suit originally being a trademark of Lang´s that had surely been there before both of them even started their careers...Which makes me believe that he should be quoted as the designer who made the slim-cut suit a staple piece - neither Hedi, nor Raf. The whole styling of strict tailoring, punk and utility references, the subdued colour palette, it´s all been there before and it certainly was a foundation for younger designers - I don´t see where Hedi, Raf, Dirk Schönberger, Nicolas Andreas Taralis or Alexander Plokov would have been these days if Helmut Lang wouldn´t have been there.

 

[tricotineacetat]

Also, I must admit that I never got the conceptualism about Raf´s collections - I´ve once been to his S/S 2004 show, the one that was build around Siddharta and the idea of creating alternative communities - In the end, this translated into huge jogging pants with sewn-on sweatshirt pieces that were meant to be tied around the waist, jackets with shallow slogans ("Siddharta is back") and patchworked blankets with even more handprinting. Not very exceptional and innovative, I must say (Leave this territory to Ann Demeulemeester, please). There had been more examples in other collections such as the entirely black summer collection that was refering to consumerism, the surf/rave culture inspired winter and several ideas... I guess you get where I am coming from.

Maybe that´s just a matter of preference, but I found this period of his work - and that´s a fairly long one in Raf´s career - as very disturbing and contrived. This is precisely the time in which Hedi became stronger I suppose, focussing more on the clothes themselves rather than getting lost in conceptualism as Raf had been for several years. Maybe it´s a cycle that everybody loses *it* for some time and then returns in full strength again, I´m happy with Raf´s

 

[softgrey]

First of all, I hope it is clear that I do not reduce Raf solely on sweatshirts and cut-off jerseys,

it is clear to me tric ....
i don't think anyone here actually reduced it to such a thing...
i think that was a misinterpretation...


you make some very strong and valid points...

and *certainly*...
the skinny suit really dates back to the late 1950's ...
though of course it has been revised and modernised since then...
by any number of designers...
jil sander being another...
even dolce and gabbana do some beautifully tailored slim cut suits...

*though i do think that hedi took it to another level...
because he brought in some couture elements which can only be done at a house where you have access to such fine craftsmanship...
like a YSL or a Dior...

...

 

[new_dawn_fades]

ido agree with tricot on this one....... but altho lang introduced the slim suit......it was raf that brought in the idea of using super thin "boy" models.... and the clothes seem to fall extremely differently on them compared to langs traditionally masculine models.. hedi seems to get the credit for supposedly changing the shape of menswear but i think that is pushing it a bit too far.. Raf deserves so much more credit... and i bet rafs tailoring would be so much better if he has an atelier as good as hedi's.. i like them both...... i like raf more because of his sincere approach... while i happen to like some of hedis , i dont find in particularly talented anyway... ripping off existing styles of indie-rockers and skateboarders. his recent collection was a bit of relief... but some pieces do seem quite feminine...
yes..i did remember the chalayan jacket when i saw rafs... but i like rafs take... the collar is bigger.... i wonder why chalayan doesnt experiment with his mens as much as he does with his womens..... he would be brilliant.

interesting article....thanks!

 

[tricotineacetat]

Exactly, there had always been the fine little details that set Hedi´s clothes apart from the pack, the fine pleats inside the french pockets of a tuxedo pant, the delicate embroideries and beadworks and of course the fabrics (I think in this field alone, he was capable of building up his own vocabulary rather quickly, with the stiff popeline shirts with covered buttons, heavy weight grain de poudre suiting, lacquered surfaces, silk lamés and duchess satin.

To be honest, the things I miss most about his approach these days are the ethnic touches, the north-african kaftans transformed into minimalist, collarless shirt-tuniques, the takes on traditional japanese attire (belts reminiscent of Obis, sleeveless wrap jackets that originated from a Haori overcoat and the topstitching of a Kimono, re-appearing on several pieces), all done in a minimalist, almost Zen-approach, which was almost close to Yohji Yamamoto, I felt.

 

[softgrey]

By "baby food" I think that they mean "large steak dinners with potatos and wine and a big slice of cake afterwards."

Not really, of course, but I think that if they meant "apple sauce" they would have said "apple sauce."

John

omg rach...
i just saw your post...


brilliantly hilarious....


and now i have pet shop boys ringing in my ears...
"i've got the brains...you've got the looks...
let's make lots of money...."
...

 

[new_dawn_fades]

Exactly, there had always been the fine little details that set Hedi´s clothes apart from the pack, the fine pleats inside the french pockets of a tuxedo pant, the delicate embroideries and beadworks and of course the fabrics (I think in this field alone, he was capable of building up his own vocabulary rather quickly, with the stiff popeline shirts with covered buttons, heavy weight grain de poudre suiting, lacquered surfaces, silk lamés and duchess satin.

To be honest, the things I miss most about his approach these days are the ethnic touches, the north-african kaftans transformed into minimalist, collarless shirt-tuniques, the takes on traditional japanese attire (belts reminiscent of Obis, sleeveless wrap jackets that originated from a Haori overcoat and the topstitching of a Kimono, re-appearing on several pieces), all done in a minimalist, almost Zen-approach, which was almost close to Yohji Yamamoto, I felt.

totally agree on that point... i liked those first few collections.... RED etc..
But lets put it this way..hes definitely one of the better menswear designers out there... but its just the hype around hedi that gets me ... im too much of a Raf supporter.... In this lifetime i want to work with him..atleast once.

 

[Boomer]

I don't know but I was in the Polo headquarters on Madison Ave last year and they had beautiful, very slim cut men's suits- I was tempted to promise myself that if I went on a diet and lost lots of weight I'd reward myself with one...
I think the Beatles would have been proud to have worn these suits in 1964- I'm not sure anyone is reinventing the wheel here, just a "new" trend and certain people are getting all the credit for it... Remember Carnaby Street? Just my opinion...

 

[nqth]

there was a good article in the NY times about "skinny fashion" I think it was posted here in tFS too.

But skinny is so "yesterday":-))) I think men fashion is moving forwards a bit indeed. The wide shoulder jkts are the "new black" now:-P

 

[tricotineacetat]

there was a good article in the NY times about "skinny fashion" I think it was posted here in tFS too.

But skinny is so "yesterday":-))) I think men fashion is moving forwards a bit indeed. The wide shoulder jkts are the "new black" now:-P

Don´t think so, because the skinny silhouette won´t ever become mainstream. I think in the future time, there´s gonna be different silhouettes for different bodytypes and tastes. It´s fine if somebody can appreciate boxy shapes and anothe superskinny ones, I think what´s really out of fashion is fashion dictatorship.

 

[nqth]

^ absolutely Tricot:-) There are sth for everybody. I was just mentioning the "absolute new":-P that has appeared on the catwalks lately.

 

[tricotineacetat]

I think it´s a good thing that there are new proportions coming back to menswear, it was indeed a dictatorship of slim-fitted collections - not that I don´t appreciate a wide offering for people like me, but I know it´s not for everybody, so why didn´t they just face the fact and have different proportions as well? Obviously it´s not so easy to get full-grown men into a pair of skinny Dior pants and more than once did I see the clothes worn by people that should have better looked out for other designers that cut more in terms with their build... Good god, Dior Homme is definitely NOT an issue for sizes 56 an upwards, yet I see exactly these pieces hanging in the shops, even though they don´t appear in huge quantities.

I think fashion should be democratic again, not only in terms of prices (which have risen sky-high in the last few years) but also cuts, there should be something for everybody - both in terms of taste and fitting.

 

[faust]

tric...
i completely agree with your assesment of hedi vs raf...
masterful tailoring vs slvls hoodies...or 80's surfer...

it is clear to me tric ....
i don't think anyone here actually reduced it to such a thing...
i think that was a misinterpretation...

riiiight...

Tricot, I don't think Helmut's slim suit = Raf's slim suit - I think the proportions were entirely different, and so was the context - Helmut building mature collections for mature audience, and Raf always building collections for younger audience, especially when he started. So, in that respect I think Raf vs. Hedi is a more valid comparison. If you look at Raf's FW 99, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised if Helmut influenced Raf - which is completely fine, because everyone is influenced by someone. I don't believe in the myth of a genius creating out of thin air.

Anyway, this is getting a bit tiresome, no? There is space for both designers, and I think both are talented. I do wish that Hedi would go back to his YSL/early Dior days (just like I wished for Raf to go back to his late 90's mood that reflected his masterful cutting skills), but it's his business, and he does what he feels like.

Cheers

 

[nqth]

^ I think he did, Faust, Raf used to wear Lang's jkt.

 

[chicgarcon]

where can i find photos of chris Ulyatt?

 

[justinelm]

1. The models had to pay for their drinks at the after-show party?!?!?!?!?!? Quite disgusting.

2. About boy Safari: Picasso was running around 18 years olds girls until he was 80 years old and no-one was going on and on on how creppy that was: whatever.

3. His architecture plans transcending the laws of Physics is quite funny.

4. photos of Chris Ulyatt: according to the article he's the first model on the show, check the video of the show dior.com?

5. I miss Helmut Lang

 

[Erzébeth II]

hedi might have weird tendencies but that article portrays him as a creep. I wouldn't judge him just because of one possibly subjective story..

and people can argue about the merits of his personal vision, but whether or not it is good it certainly has earned its place in history. decades from now he'll be the guy who pioneered the fashionably thin man/boy during the 2000s.