Raf Simons Closing Namesake Brand

[Drusilla_]

Sad to hear this, he's emblematic of my youth in many ways but if he had to have a last show, it may as well have been that one.

But I'm with @LadyJunon, I preferred his work at Jil Sander (especially his final collection) and later Calvin Klein, to his namesake brand, he has the design chops, but something about the former two just clicked for me (less so his Dior).

 

[Beun]

I am happy to read so much appreciation for his tenure at JS, it was both his best work and he was the house's best designer apart from Jil herself IMHO. Unlike the Meiers, he really stayed faithful to the brand's DNA and yet managed to bring something of his own to it

 

[Phuel]

Also let's be honest, this is where Demna will end up in 15 years.

I may be completely off— but, I always got the impression Demna is much more self-aware, much more prone to take full advantage, exploit opportunities therefore know when to not overstay his welcome, as his leaving the sale Vetements has shown, and not marinating in pretension as Raf has shown to have been.

Demna has absolutely sold his soul to the fashion circus clowns for current relevance and clout. His Skid Row identity is as lazy and insulting as Raf’s Eastern European homeless kidz, no doubt. But once he falls out of flavour with the children— and he will, as his Vetements already has, he will return to a more refined sensibility; a sensibility that’s always been there, underneath all the trolling, gimmicky slop. Raf seems to have forgotten about his refined Jil Sander sensibilities— a sensibility that would have seamlessly eased into the classic Prada aesthetic. Again, I really liked his stark and graphic approach for Dior and Calvin Klein (but still not enough to pay for his Calvin Klein…). Instead, they chose to impress the kidz with more oversized slop that’s the worst of his signatures. You know, I was searching for an iPhone case, and saw the Prada one: Simple, classic saffiano… But somehow it looked so cheap. Now, it’s not Raf’s fault since saffiano’s been the brand’s signature for forever. Yet, it’s the Raf’s Prada era that has cheapened the brand’s simplicity to a basic-ness that’s very dollar store/outlet/knockoff looking. Are Prada’s profits flourishing with his arrival? I couldn’t care less. And if Prada were to close tomorrow, I wouldn’t care much, frankly.

 

[bc collector]

Raf seems to have forgotten about his refined Jil Sander sensibilities— a sensibility that would have seamlessly eased into the classic Prada aesthetic

That's a debate going on regarding that: whether the refined sensibilities were his or Van Ommeslaeghe's...

 

[Norden]

That's a debate going on regarding that: whether the refined sensibilities were his or Van Ommeslaeghe's...

I think it’s a bit of both, raf at that time was much more focused with his concepts, combined with riffing on a clear dna at Jil it was very clear and successful. Van ommeslaeghe brought a precision and craft to the table which is an excellent combination imo. Alas it was a different time, designers were more formalist in their gestures, and conceptual fashion worked really well. I feel that Hedis SL really changed fashion discourse after that.

 

[Deleted member 7575]

That's a debate going on regarding that: whether the refined sensibilities were his or Van Ommeslaeghe's...

Definitely Patrick. Without a doubt. His hand is so obvious and distinct once you see the collections under his own name from 1999-2001.

Simply compare Dior to Jil Sander. It is glaring. What's the variable that changed?

PATRICK

Imho he's one of the greatest but most underrated designers of the post-war era.

 

[velvetandsilk]

^
Patrick had a great eye for colors. You can see that he chose colors. Fantastic designer.

Rafa had a talent for making the right connections to get a job even after he destroyed his employer. I like his Jil and his first collection for Dior.

Also let's be honest, this is where Demna will end up in 15 years.

He moves to Zurich after becoming rich. This is the best summary of who he is. He's actually a very corporate person, not someone who is enfant terrible fashion world. I used to laugh when I read his interview and he said that it was such a boring city and when he goes to the bank he shocks the staff with his messy appearance... Boy, you're not a rebel...

 

[rip_ian curtis]

While the Raf Simons of recent years hasn’t really appealed to me personally like it did before, I still think he always showed something different than anyone else and something that was very much him. There was a silhouette and fabrication that had a point of view. In a way it’s sad to see these people go, especially when there is increasingly more untalented people at top jobs with nothing personal to say.

Offtopic - but I always wondered why Patrick van Ommeslaeghe didn’t join the Dior team with Raf. Instead he continued one season at JS under Jil and then left. Anyway, it’s obvious how much he impacted Raf’s JS. He has a very distinctive design language that you will recognize, no matter what the brand.

 

[Kennnnn]

I discovered Raf in 1998 and wore quite a bit of his stuff through 2000-2001. I stopped when the look and feel of his work started to change in the early 00s. I enjoyed his Jil and bought one of the sweaters from his first collection, at the store on KuDam in Berlin - the one with the sort of keyhole shaped neckline. I don't think I've bought anything else of his ever since. The proportions, in particular, did not appeal to me at all. Some of the final corrections, imho, were just plain silly.

 

[IndigoHomme]

Simons will have the same fate as van Assche at Dior: he will give everything for Prada and in the end he will lose his job and his own label

 

[Fulton St Critique]

Raf’s menswear’s influence became irrelevant by 2010; he was never going to be able to generate the impact that the likes of Thom and Tom would. I’ve never liked him enough o wear his designs — and I liked his design vision for Dior and Calvin Klein. HIs own label became more and more insufferable, desperate and simply out of touch with all the young men that so coveted his brand of stark and severe minimalism back in the mid-2000s when they were young. They grew up, while his namesake label was stuck in this awkward and faux "rebellious youth” fashion purgatory that revealed more of an aging, wealthy designer pining for his Berlin youth. It all resulted in such a ridiculously, desperately clinging to some struggling, impoverish youth design vision that nobody is dumb enough the suckered into paying for— and it is the reason why rappers that have become wealthy in their middle-age don’t come out performing like they’re still 21yo, angry at the world with nothing to lose: Because they’ve made it. Raf didn’t seem to get that while his customer did.

And that’s very different from Hedi. Stripped of his obsession with the heavy stylings of youth cultures, his separates are impressively versatile for both young and older. Like Nicolas, Hedi understands the fashion times they're working and living in and design accordingly; Both men are masters at reading the room. Their former, glorious take on fashion wouldn’t work, and would be wasted, in these lesser fashion days-- at least not to such high impacts as they’ve forged with such relevance for the current times. You know, sometimes you simply have to reign back your creative force of will in order to not just survive the times, but to reign over the times.

This : “You know, sometimes you simply have to reign back your creative force of will in order to not just survive the times, but to reign over the times.”

One of the best takes I have read regarding creative output in this day, thanks @Phuel

 

[Drusilla_]

I think it's also fair to accept that some designers belong to 'their time', and are of it in a way that no one else will be, and also that once that time is past, it's too much to expect them to capture subsequent eras the same way.

and I also respect the decision to pull the plug rather than keep going or sell off the brand or let someone else be its head designer. Not many designers get to do that, i.e. going out on their terms.

 

[Phuel]

This : “You know, sometimes you simply have to reign back your creative force of will in order to not just survive the times, but to reign over the times.”

One of the best takes I have read regarding creative output in this day, thanks @Phuel

Thank you, Fulton. You know, many times on TFS, intelligent individuals whom wholly grasp the concept of common sense/logic and reason/pragmatism to such a grounded sensibility— but then because certain brands no longer live up to some personal preference, it’s “GTFO— shut it down!” LOOOL …Why would the CEOs of any deeply-legacied house dissolve a brand simply for not supposedly living up to its founders’ creative vision of another time/fashion era and standards, when the brand remains profitable??? Frankly, I envy anyone that’s from such a rarified atmosphere where the privilege of shutting down a brand is actually a real-world option because it didn’t live up to some personal standards. I can only dream of such a life-- of such employment, and of such employers, where I never have to compromise nor reign back my personal standards.

(Haider Ackermann’s current work with Fila comes to mind: He needs to do whatever he needs to do to keep his brand afloat. Good for him. He’s a survivor. Anyone that is able to be so discerning about employment as to turn down work— you are very privileged, very fortunate. The rest of us aren’t so blessed. These are the days when lessers dominate, while the great talents struggle. Fashiondom really has become Kurt Vonnegut’s dystopian nightmare world. Satire and parody is now fashion’s reality.)

 

[Drusilla_]

Why would the CEOs of any deeply-legacied house dissolve a brand simply for not supposedly living up to its founders’ creative vision of another time/fashion era and standards, when the brand remains profitable???

Exactly. I said this yesterday in another thread yesterday, that Jeanne Lanvin would certainly not recognise anything Alber did under the Lanvin label because she lived almost a century before him, so if we stuck to that idea of 'no label without the founder' then it would mean no Alber. Because of course they won't recognise it, look how trends change in just a generation, forget 2 or 3. Also no Naoki Takizawa at Issey Miyake post-Issey's retirement. no Karl at Chanel, no Ferragamo without Salvatore (and these are brands established pre-war that have lasted decades and are going to this day). Alaia would have been shut in 2017.

Like I said above, not many designers get to go out on their own terms so I think it's good when one does and I respect it. That doesn't mean that I think they all need to shut down if the founder dies or leaves, especially when the brand is built to the level that some of these are. I've seen quite a few talented designers forced to close shop over the years, and it's not usually in the 'one last good time' spirit that Raf got (which I'm glad he did get). If they have to do the odd collaborations to keep their brand afloat, I just hope it's worth it for them.

 

[Phuel]

^^^ Absolutely.

But it’s also blatant bias/emotions/even prejudice that’s overtaken many reactions: Of course Karl/Alber/Nicolas reinventing the fabled Houses get a resounding pass— while the likes of Maria Grazia/Sarah/Olivier Rousteing are to be offed because their brand of fashion isn’t approved LOL I will even further the very unpopular opinion that I like what Maria Grazia and Sarah Burton are offering at their respective labels. They are by no means the best, but piercing through their (abysmally bland) presentations and a lot of basic merch (that keeps a brand in business nowadays), and concentrating on the hearts of the collections as separates, there’s (usually) a quiet and reserved dignity, a respect of the human form, and even a sensuality, in the best of their offerings. Factors that can’t always be attributed to McQueen the man, and especially towards John’s final days at Dior, of which in his last days for Dior, had mutated and deformed into the most gaudy and extravagant of drag— and I don’t mean that in a good way. And being at the service of the human form is also something that definitely can’t be attributed to any of these new guards: Julien did show promise at Paco, until he decided to dress women for their quinceañera, or Daniel’s once charming Parisian caricature now fully transformed into what American 14yo gayz and drag queens alike would idealize as quintessentially French. I’ll gladly take the best of Maria Grazia’s and Sarah’s designs for women. (Then there’s JW/Daniel Lee/that Alaia person, all of whom dress women in Dr. Seuss clownwear and people are convinced that the former 2 are some New Guard LOOL If I were a woman, I’d be so thankful for Maria Grazia and Sarah in comparison to those trolls.)

Besides Helmut Lang, has there been any other designer that has walked away from fame and fortune of their label at the height of its influence??? I adore A.F. Vandevorst— everything: their designs, their shows, their aesthetic, their humour… but they left the industry because the label was simply not profiting, unfortunately— and not because they were no longer interested in design. That’s the same path for many, many new designers I’ve worked with. It’s such a cut-throat, ruthless and unforgiving industry: People know very quickly what they’re in for once they’ve come into this world. Creative design talent and personal vision isn’t the top priority, and less more so in these dire fashion days— just ask Ralph Rucci/Olivier Theyskens/Haider Ackermann.

(A month or so ago, someone in the American midwest won a lottery worth over a billion… Doubtless to say, the American way is to spend the winnings on mansions/cars/more mansions— and still shop at Target. I'd like to imagine that the winning being invested in nurturing and unleashing the full talents of Ralph Rucci/Olivier Theyskens/Haider Ackermann-- and profiting financially, to boot…:sigh:…)

 

[Deleted member 7575]

^^^ Absolutely.

But it’s also blatant bias/emotions/even prejudice that’s overtaken many reactions: Of course Karl/Alber/Nicolas reinventing the fabled Houses get a resounding pass— while the likes of Maria Grazia/Sarah/Olivier Rousteing are to be offed because their brand of fashion isn’t approved LOL I will even further the very unpopular opinion that I like what Maria Grazia and Sarah Burton are offering at their respective labels. They are by no means the best, but piercing through their (abysmally bland) presentations and a lot of basic merch (that keeps a brand in business nowadays), and concentrating on the hearts of the collections as separates, there’s (usually) a quiet and reserved dignity, a respect of the human form, and even a sensuality, in the best of their offerings. Factors that can’t always be attributed to McQueen the man, and especially towards John’s final days at Dior, of which in his last days for Dior, had mutated and deformed into the most gaudy and extravagant of drag— and I don’t mean that in a good way. And being at the service of the human form is also something that definitely can’t be attributed to any of these new guards: Julien did show promise at Paco, until he decided to dress women for their quinceañera, or Daniel’s once charming Parisian caricature now fully transformed into what American 14yo gayz and drag queens alike would idealize as quintessentially French. I’ll gladly take the best of Maria Grazia’s and Sarah’s designs for women. (Then there’s JW/Daniel Lee/that Alaia person, all of whom dress women in Dr. Seuss clownwear and people are convinced that the former 2 are some New Guard LOOL If I were a woman, I’d be so thankful for Maria Grazia and Sarah in comparison to those trolls.)

Besides Helmut Lang, has there been any other designer that has walked away from fame and fortune of their label at the height of its influence??? I adore A.F. Vandevorst— everything: their designs, their shows, their aesthetic, their humour… but they left the industry because the label was simply not profiting, unfortunately— and not because they were no longer interested in design. That’s the same path for many, many new designers I’ve worked with. It’s such a cut-throat, ruthless and unforgiving industry: People know very quickly what they’re in for once they’ve come into this world. Creative design talent and personal vision isn’t the top priority, and less more so in these dire fashion days— just ask Ralph Rucci/Olivier Theyskens/Haider Ackermann.

(A month or so ago, someone in the American midwest won a lottery worth over a billion… Doubtless to say, the American way is to spend the winnings on mansions/cars/more mansions— and still shop at Target. I'd like to imagine that the winning being invested in nurturing and unleashing the full talents of Ralph Rucci/Olivier Theyskens/Haider Ackermann-- and profiting financially, to boot…:sigh:…)

Amen

 

[LadyJunon]

^^^ Absolutely.

But it’s also blatant bias/emotions/even prejudice that’s overtaken many reactions: Of course Karl/Alber/Nicolas reinventing the fabled Houses get a resounding pass— while the likes of Maria Grazia/Sarah/Olivier Rousteing are to be offed because their brand of fashion isn’t approved LOL I will even further the very unpopular opinion that I like what Maria Grazia and Sarah Burton are offering at their respective labels. They are by no means the best, but piercing through their (abysmally bland) presentations and a lot of basic merch (that keeps a brand in business nowadays), and concentrating on the hearts of the collections as separates, there’s (usually) a quiet and reserved dignity, a respect of the human form, and even a sensuality, in the best of their offerings. Factors that can’t always be attributed to McQueen the man, and especially towards John’s final days at Dior, of which in his last days for Dior, had mutated and deformed into the most gaudy and extravagant of drag— and I don’t mean that in a good way. And being at the service of the human form is also something that definitely can’t be attributed to any of these new guards: Julien did show promise at Paco, until he decided to dress women for their quinceañera, or Daniel’s once charming Parisian caricature now fully transformed into what American 14yo gayz and drag queens alike would idealize as quintessentially French. I’ll gladly take the best of Maria Grazia’s and Sarah’s designs for women. (Then there’s JW/Daniel Lee/that Alaia person, all of whom dress women in Dr. Seuss clownwear and people are convinced that the former 2 are some New Guard LOOL If I were a woman, I’d be so thankful for Maria Grazia and Sarah in comparison to those trolls.)

Besides Helmut Lang, has there been any other designer that has walked away from fame and fortune of their label at the height of its influence??? I adore A.F. Vandevorst— everything: their designs, their shows, their aesthetic, their humour… but they left the industry because the label was simply not profiting, unfortunately— and not because they were no longer interested in design. That’s the same path for many, many new designers I’ve worked with. It’s such a cut-throat, ruthless and unforgiving industry: People know very quickly what they’re in for once they’ve come into this world. Creative design talent and personal vision isn’t the top priority, and less more so in these dire fashion days— just ask Ralph Rucci/Olivier Theyskens/Haider Ackermann.

(A month or so ago, someone in the American midwest won a lottery worth over a billion… Doubtless to say, the American way is to spend the winnings on mansions/cars/more mansions— and still shop at Target. I'd like to imagine that the winning being invested in nurturing and unleashing the full talents of Ralph Rucci/Olivier Theyskens/Haider Ackermann-- and profiting financially, to boot…:sigh:…)

I want to thank you for helping me decide to give up on this sad dying industry. If all we have are drag costumes and abysmally bland clothes, then it's not worth it.

 

[Phuel]

^^^ If by "dying", you mean the plague of creative-bankruptcy— absolutely. If you mean these blue-chip brands are dying because they're in the red, financially? Absolutely not. Pricetags are so ridiculously, offensively inflated for what are essentially outlet merch, relentlessly churned out to such disgusting excess to meet the ever-increasing profit demands of these companies. The bright light to all this blatant corporate greed isn’t to give up on the industry, it’s to be a smart and educated consumer; to not be easily led by “influencers”and celebs— the charlatans/hustlers of these corporate brands. Think for yourself. There’s still great fashion to be had: Vintage, upcycling, secondhand, deadstock, Lemaire’s Uniqlo… Still excited to searching out older Prada offerings. There’s still enough good fashion to make it all worthwhile for the discerning consumer, even in these unworthy fashion times. And for the professional creative, these are the days that will either shape one into a resilient, versatile and flexible survivor to weather these times, and don’t take things personally (like @Mutterlein, who despite having Haider sitting on her coat, seems to still recognize his talent and support him as a designer)— or one realizes the industry isn’t for them after all, and make for the countryside and open up a pottery studio.

 

[gallianostan]

sometimes i really do think about properly entering this industry and giving it the kick up the *** it needs. but then i remember everyone on thefashionspot would likely tear my clothes to shreds.

 

[LadyJunon]

sometimes i really do think about properly entering this industry and giving it the kick up the *** it needs. but then i remember everyone on thefashionspot would likely tear my clothes to shreds.

This is a mood. I still have dreams about making a label, but the industry right now is so repulsive. That's why I'm trying to self-teach myself to cut, drape and sew instead of taking a fashion design course. It might make connections harder, but I'm a masochist anyway.
Worst case scenario, I could skip the whole fashion circus and just do well made beautiful clothes and present them through cinematic digital films à la YSL.