If he's under contract,and not satisfied months or years on,doesn't that mean he'd still have to stay? Believe you me,I understand totally why he might have signed on....to help finance his own label. That's great! But,we're also talking fascist Prada here....and Bertelli is a complete twat unto himself...I definitely think with Raf's spirit,there will be clashes between them,creatively.
Raf Simons >creative director at Jil Sander
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Scott said:
I don't think Raf needs help financing his own label. Neither did Jil nor Helmut, not like they were poor, they just wanted to expand. There is not a word about financing his label or taken over his label or anything like that. He's just an employee of another company, completely unrelated to his own. I do hope he is smart enough to sign a short term contract.
metal-on-metal said:
i dont deny he's talented, but he's still hyped in my book..
hyped for me goes well with anyone who's talents have been like 'over-exaggerated' thats how i see Raf, he's good, but he's portrayed as much much better than he actually is
in anycase, good luck to him with the Prada Group, hopefully he will be clever enough..
faust said:ThanksI STILL don't think that there will be a major turn around for Jil or Helmut without them EVER, so Raf gets to have all the fun while Bertelli gets to lose more money. Yippie!
I actually thought the same thing as you, Faust. As long as Jil Sander and Helmut are still alive (and still young, healthy, and at their creative peak... which they are) I don't see how anybody could expect much more than just breaking even.
As I see it, if Raf keeps much with Jil's silhouette and style, then sales might not rise too much because it will be seen as "diluted" Jil Sander and not as good as Jil's Jil Sander. Also, if he does this, then fans of his own label will probably not transfer over to buy the more expensive Jil Sander.
On the other hand, if Raf does a stellar, stand-out, break the mold collection, then perhaps there will be some immediate sales from new customers (or from buyers of Raf's own label) but the loyal Jil Sander buyers who have grown with her style might feel alienated. And, thus, after an initial peak, sales will probably slump again.
So... while I'm excited to see what happens, it might prove a little tricky.
Of course, it is all a little premature to guess until we actually see a collection, but I still think it is almost a lose-lose situation in terms of a big "turnaround." What it will do is give Raf a chance to get his name, image, and ideas into a very different "circle" of fashion. So, good for him.
John
i think the archetype of Sander's design 'signature' is not that far from Raf's tailoring/style, hence the Sander clients wont hold back on Raf.. its a smooth replacement, commercially it should work, creatively, Raf knows how to deal with low budget materials/fabrics so he wont have trouble with mr B.'s tight Sander budgets either..
Lena said:
The way I think about it (and thanks John for your agreement) is this; Jil's and Helmut's style is so minimal that it is more the idea, the concept, the timing of when they developed is much more of an allure than the actual clothes themselves. Let's face it, most of it is pretty damn minimal and does not require a great talent to CONTINUE doing it. Think of Malevich's painting The Black Square. It's nothing but a black square, anyone can do it - it is the concept and the timing of it that made it so influential - anyone else's black square is worthless.
metal-on-metal
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So true. Perfect analogy.faust said:
faust said:I don't think Raf needs help financing his own label. Neither did Jil nor Helmut, not like they were poor, they just wanted to expand. There is not a word about financing his label or taken over his label or anything like that. He's just an employee of another company, completely unrelated to his own. I do hope he is smart enough to sign a short term contract.
No,I meant he was going to use the money that he makes from designing Jil Sander to help finance his own label. Actually,I think he could use the extra money-I mean he has a small business....quantities are also small so...
Lena said:
In a sense , linking ths up with the Prada business thread , Helmut Lang and Jil Sander are just the victims of ' time ' and , surprise , surprise , ' FASHION ' .
I remember some years ago talking to the owner of a haut de gamme boutique who said , like Shakespeare , that everything or everyone ' hath their time ' .
Over the years that I have been buying men's designer clothes , I have shifted my loyalty from one designer to another , with not a little shame , when that designer became a little stale , or dare I say , outmoded .
I started with Yves Saint Laurent , with little diversions to Missoni , Walter Albini , Cerruti 1881 etc in the 70s .When Yves became all ' le style Anglais ' in the early 80s , I defcted to Giorgio Armani and a little EARLY Gianni Versace , Adolfo Dominguez and Marithe et Francois Girbaud , finally settling on Claude Montana with whom I remained until he finally went ' belly up ' in the later 90s . I have since bought mainly from Issey Miyake with a little flirtation with Yohji Yamamoto and Hermes .
As the boutique owner said , 'Everyone has their time ' , which means Helmut and Jil . I felt upset when Helmut's rigid minimalism with 60s style boxy jackets and flat fronted trousers replaced the quirky French chic of Montana , Mugler and Alaia ( to whom I will return ) . But Helmut was the new age , keeping at bay the rampant sexual consumerist approach of Tom Ford's Gucci . He has lasted a very good 10 or more years , which is about the going rate for a designer's ' commercial hotness ' ratio , ( of course with the honourable exceptions of Rei Kawakubo , Yohji and EVEN Gaultier ).
Jil was a superb and unique specialist house , the acme of understated luxury , who combined Helmut's minimalism with Japanese idiosyncracy . Selling to Prada was a mistake in that she lost the power of rigidly , in the best possible way , abiding by her vision , yet more poignantly , having on the return from her hiatus with Prada , widened her frame of reference to include the softness in dress advocated by Marni and the other ' we are making clothes for REAL WOMEN ' cohort , like Chloe , Giles Deacon , and hopefully to return , Martine Sitbon , etc . She should have stayed small , like Helmut should have , but who knows the financial pressures that forced them into the tender mercies of Bertelli . As for Azzedine Alaia , he SEEMS to be able to play the game with Prada , but for how long ? Where's his ' killer ' handbag and must have accessories range , with a possible ' diffusion ' line in view ? At this moment he has resisted the pressure to dilute his aesthetic , but only time will tell...........
To get to the actual topic , I think that Raf Simons ( prounanced Simmons ) , will be good for a '.......' for '........ ..........' label , particularly as his minimalism matches that of Sander's , and I must say that from the point of view of his menswear , my main interest , his A/W 05/06 is very good indeed and shows a willingness to experiment with proportions .
Incidentally , while we are on the subject of designers in their time , how long is it that the Belgian cohort were as hot as when they first shot to prominence ? QUITE RIGHTLY SO they have their champions here on TFS , but even they would admit that apart from Dries van Noten , wo has a wonderful business sense allied with an ineffable and timeless aesthetic , luminaries such as Ann Demeulemeester and Dirk Shoneberger have had to run for financial cover , which I sincerely hope will NOT involve their having to compromise their personal aethetics .
Raf Simons , I feel has tried to read the future , and if he can keep his epoymous label out of the hands of Prada , his hopefully wider exposure will benifit not only himself , but the legacy of Helmut at the SHELL of his own - name house . Thank God he did not let himself fall into the hands of Arnault at LVMH - CELINE is NOT a house for edgy creativity , it's an ' American sophisticated lady ' epitome of ' luxe ' house at the moment , maintaining the best traditions of American spotswear in a Parisian setting , and long may it remain so .
I started my fashion life so to speak , on the RIVE GAUCHE , so to speak ( btw , has anyone noticed how YSL has dropped this nomenclature from its advertising - such a pity , but probably this is yet another sign of my increasing outmodedness
) and I've fetched up in the realms of the timeless - Issey Miyake , with a smidgeon of Hermes , but I feel all the more comfortable , in every way , for this .As I began with , high fashion is at a juncture , both financially as is dictated by the downturn in the sale of luxury goods , but also artistically , as decisions on funding force some designers to the wall and others to take their place . As sombody has no doubt ALREADY said , it's a whole new ballgame from the advent of READY TO WEAR in late 50s France and middle 60s Italy , to the global system that it is now .
I only have to look at TFS to note the promising newcomers and the fading of such well loved names as some of those mentioned in my post here .
I was really unaware of ' l'arte povere ' movement in Italy , until I was brought up by my bootstraps ( pace Faust's ' The Boots ' ) , and what a new world it is !!!
But that's the FUTURE and it will be interesting to see just how it will pan out . Raf for Helmut seems a promising move , but one must NOT forget that it's just a faint ripple in the vast ocean of fashion .
Just WHO remembers the Princess Diana - style explosion of grief when a certain Tom Ford left Gucci ............
BTW , SLIGHTLY off topic , I DO hope that the up and coming Greek designer mentioned in the shopping in Athens thread - Lena Katsanidou - is your very good self , Lena .
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V.good post Kit:-)
I think the real problem with Hemut Lang or Jil Sander is growth. It is not that their minimalistic style won't have customers anymore, nor "finished" by the time. They both were so successful it's difficult to remain so big when minimalism is not maintream anymore.
The houses should take non-expanding course indeed. They could survise this, like many other houses "survised" the mimimalism.
And the minimalism hasn't just staying "black square" :-P It becomes more experimental, or like Hermes, melting into a luxury, undestated timeless elegance.
Imo Jil Sander has copped with the changes much better than Helmut Lang. Her late collections were a hit, creating much more interests than HL. The quality issues with HL (that was mentioned in tFS several times) did not help him.
Back to Raf Simons:-) It was a big surprise here when I talked with people, too. He was always "against", athough he's started experimentations instead of going the original subculture course from last 2,3 collections. Which is ab. good, imo. He is moving fast forward, maybe becoming an influential designer.
It's very interesting imo to see his first women collection. I'd like to see the final "touch" of his hand:-). Let's see if he has a "vision", like Jil Sander and Helmut Lang always showed.
I remember when hRaf Simons won the Swiss textile award, it was 100 000 euro. And it was said it helped him to experiment with new fabrics... for SS 05
I think the real problem with Hemut Lang or Jil Sander is growth. It is not that their minimalistic style won't have customers anymore, nor "finished" by the time. They both were so successful it's difficult to remain so big when minimalism is not maintream anymore.
The houses should take non-expanding course indeed. They could survise this, like many other houses "survised" the mimimalism.
And the minimalism hasn't just staying "black square" :-P It becomes more experimental, or like Hermes, melting into a luxury, undestated timeless elegance.
Imo Jil Sander has copped with the changes much better than Helmut Lang. Her late collections were a hit, creating much more interests than HL. The quality issues with HL (that was mentioned in tFS several times) did not help him.
Back to Raf Simons:-) It was a big surprise here when I talked with people, too. He was always "against", athough he's started experimentations instead of going the original subculture course from last 2,3 collections. Which is ab. good, imo. He is moving fast forward, maybe becoming an influential designer.
It's very interesting imo to see his first women collection. I'd like to see the final "touch" of his hand:-). Let's see if he has a "vision", like Jil Sander and Helmut Lang always showed.
I remember when hRaf Simons won the Swiss textile award, it was 100 000 euro. And it was said it helped him to experiment with new fabrics... for SS 05
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screenage said:
Raf's
Jil's menswear has never set my mouth watering , except for a few pieces in her very first collection , and they were actually the designs of Roberto Menichetti , under Jil's house design directorship .
Jil's womenswear is , on the other hand is legendary
. Just read what Rita Britton has to say about her on the POLLYANNA website . She has bought the collections since Jil's early 80s days , as has Joan Burstein at Browns of South Molton Street , at one time actually having a Jil Sander Boutique there in the early 90s .
