Jil Sander

[Orochian]

And I thought these things have been clearly negotiated through before Jil Sander returned to her own house. What exactly would be the point to make up and start over if the very same dispute that caused her to leave in the first place, was still there?

This may be slightly off-topic, but this seemingly endless stream of conflicts between Sander and her bosses at Prada makes me wonder what's the situation like over at Helmut Lang. We haven't heard of the slightest ounce of unpleasantness or clashing there, have we?

Lang doesn't seem like someone who'd settle for creative restrictions and the downgrading of quality for the sake of profits - complaints that Sander have lodged against Prada. So is Lang just exceptionally easy-going, or is Sander particularly hard to please? Or is it something else?

It's sad when you think about how much Helmut Lang has flourished and expanded over the past few years, while Jil Sander kind of stagnated under the (uninspired) direction of Milan Vukmirovic. I hope they work out their differences for good.

 

[nikos]

helmut has hardly flourished financially under prada. he is in deep red, too. it's just that sander is a public company and has to give out financial results.

jil is very dogmatic. just enter the store and see the manically orchestrated positioning of each salesperson in the boutique... these retail temples she had built are another factor. a 10,000 sq foot store in paris, a 12,000 sq foot morgue in london, an 18,000 sq foot townhouse on 57th st in ny (rent=$750 per sq feet/month). not a single one of these palaces are profitable... vuitton may compensate by making money elsewhere, sander cannot.

she is a quality fanatic. everybody knows. helmut ain't. he has no prob with his crappy shirts being produced in morocco, ready for disposal the moment they arrive in stores.

i love sander. it's such a great label but i don't see a lot of room for growth. it's a $200 million company that makes more than 90% of money through clothes as opposed to prada's 25%. her clientele is what it always was - architects, bankers, lawyers - not buying into "must-have" items. and it's too cool a label to rival gucci and their friends in their domaine. not that i want it to...

 

[tott]

Just a little something which might add to the conflict, or may even be the reason behind it: cultural differences in the workplace. Especially when it comes to employees/managerial culture and quality issues...

I'm from Sweden and moved to Italy almost 1,5 years ago. I've only worked for one company here, so this might not be true for all Italian companies... Judging by what I hear, I think it's fairly representative.

A few of the things I've learnt is that there is practically no dialogue between managers/employees. Managers manage and employees are supposed to simply do their bidding. Italian wages are low, and there's a surplus of well-educated workers which leads to a fire-and-hire mentality among employers; if people do not "behave" you just replace them with another one who does. Everyone is replaceable, everyone. Italian workers keep silent and complain bitterly amongst themselves.

Which leads to skills/quality issues. Italian companies in general do not strive for perfection, neither in quality nor execution. There's a "good enough" approach to many, many things. Things don't have to be "the best", simply "good enough". Italian workers don't really get rewarded or recognized for any superior skills and performance, so they simply don't give a damn. There aren't that many dedicated workers on the market.

I've clashed with my bosses on many occassions and issues, and they would've fired me ten times over if I wasn't a bit hard to replace... But I think I'm adjusting and learning how to do my job despite the obstacles.

When it comes to Jil, she probably has a more Northern mentality than her Italian bosses, and since she expects quality she might have to fight this "good enough" approach too. I don't envy her position.

 

[Lena]

having experienced the "Italian situation" myself,
i agree with tott's points, i couldnt say this better myself...
Helmut Lang has been directing his company in the most clever way possible.
hence, he avoids banging his head on the wall...

Orochian, if you have a close look at both designers work,
you will easily understand where the conflict (and the lack of it) stands.
The main difference between the two lines, is 'quality' of fabrics.
*Lang works on good quality 'basic' materials while giving his efford
mainly on forms and lines that are also not too hard to manufacture.
*Jil Sander is a 'fabrics' maniac. She needs special treatments, new technologies and the best qualities out there.
More, she needs 'engineering' new Sanders fabrics, and works from there.
Plus her designs are so based on details.
She's a purist that doesnt find it easy to compromise on fabrics prices
or constraction quality.

Sander's intitial problem with Prada Group was her fabrics
(she was choosing the very best=expensive for her collections)
I suspect that this problem is still there...

Helmut does not face this problem, he always uses the same basic materials
which is ok, it doesnt bother the HL 'younger' clients, still makes
all his collections looking a bit the same and stay quite reasonable in prices.
At least he has no conflicts and can persuade Prada Group to spend more
opening new shops HL boutiques etc etc.

Prada Group has a weakness with using expensive fabrics/materials.
Their 'philosophy' is that nice things can be done out of not so expensive
materials.. and of course they are right, but some designers need more
than basic in order to materialise their vision

 

[faust]

Originally posted by Lena@Mar 10th, 2004 - 3:34 am
having experienced the "Italian situation" myself,
i agree with tott's points, i couldnt say this better myself...
Helmut Lang has been directing his company in the most clever way possible.
hence, he avoids banging his head on the wall...

Orochian, if you have a close look at both designers work,
you will easily understand where the conflict (and the lack of it) stands.
The main difference between the two lines, is 'quality' of fabrics.
*Lang works on good quality 'basic' materials while giving his efford
mainly on forms and lines that are also not too hard to manufacture.
*Jil Sander is a 'fabrics' maniac. She needs special treatments, new technologies and the best qualities out there.
More, she needs 'engineering' new Sanders fabrics, and works from there.
Plus her designs are so based on details.
She's a purist that doesnt find it easy to compromise on fabrics prices
or constraction quality.

Sander's intitial problem with Prada Group was her fabrics
(she was choosing the very best=expensive for her collections)
I suspect that this problem is still there...

Helmut does not face this problem, he always uses the same basic materials
which is ok, it doesnt bother the HL 'younger' clients, still makes
all his collections looking a bit the same and stay quite reasonable in prices.
At least he has no conflicts and can persuade Prada Group to spend more
opening new shops HL boutiques etc etc.

Prada Group has a weakness with using expensive fabrics/materials.
Their 'philosophy' is that nice things can be done out of not so expensive
materials.. and of course they are right, but some designers need more
than basic in order to materialise their vision

Exactly! Prada's own line's quality is far from excellent, which is one of the reasons I never held her in high regard. Another is her bland designs, but that's a whole different issue. I don't like Sander's style either, but I can definitely appreciate the fabrics she uses - just touching the cashmere of her sweaters makes me all mellow and cozy

 

[nikos]

Massardi resigned last week! yet another small triumph for jil

 

[softgrey]

Originally posted by nikos@Mar 27th, 2004 - 5:41 pm
Massardi resigned last week! yet another small triumph for jil

wow...

 

[Lena]

Originally posted by nikos@Mar 27th, 2004 - 11:41 pm
Massardi resigned last week! yet another small triumph for jil

thanks for the news nikos, anything for Jill to do it her way

 

[mikeijames]

is every fashion house in upheval? i would love to see someone do an over arching story about all of the conflicts that have taken place in the past twelve months in these conglomerates? it would fill a book, easily.

 

[softgrey]

yes mike...i believe every house is in some sort of conflict right now...dismal sales will cause stress and pressure every time... everyone is in a panic...

at least rei kawakubo is experimenting with alternative solutions...she' on the right track, imo...

 

[nikos]

Vukmirovic's 2003 figures revealed - a staggering loss of €28.2 million, turnover decreasing once more from €138.8 million in 2002 to €125.7 million in 2003.

 

[Lena]

here, more facts & numbers on the JilSander label

Wednesday March 31, 2004
Despite Jil’s Return, Sander Stays in Red

By Courtney Colavita

MILAN — Last year may have marked the return of Jil Sander to the company that bears her name, but it wasn’t enough to bring the Prada-owned fashion house out of the red.

Jil Sander Group widened its net loss to $34.6 million in 2003 from $32 million in the previous year. Dollar figures have been converted from the euro at current exchange. In local currency Jil Sander reported a net loss of 28.4 million euros versus 26.3 million euros in 2002.

Group revenues, hurt by unfavorable exchange rates and the residual effects of the SARS epidemic, slid 9.4 percent to $153.4 million, or 125.7 million euros, from $169.4 million, or 138.8 million euros in 2002. The company said on a constant currency basis, sales fell 2.6 percent to $164.9 million, or 135.1 million euros.

“With this difficult year behind us, we have signs 2004 is off to a good start thanks to Mrs. Sander’s return as creative director,” Bernhard Wirmer, chief financial officer of Jil Sander Group, said in a statement. “Orders and sales for the spring-summer and fall-winter collections have been very strong.” The statement went on to say that Sander’s return was “especially important” for the company’s “overall strategy, image and brand equity.”

After a three-year absence, Sander returned to the fashion house last May. Her first collection, which was well received by both the press and retailers, bowed this spring.

from wwd

 

[faust]

she will have to do something extraordinary to keep the buyers coming for more than one season

 

[paris]

interesting...

it's always hard to see a design through without any issues. a designer unfortunately has to navigate through all the red tape that makes up his or her staff, management, etc... and focus on bringing their design to reality.

and prototype to production, adherance to quality, and a shared philosophy to build a better product... it's an uphill battle. you add to it cultural beliefs, readily accepting of details like quality materials, craftmanship, etc... it gets crazy...

=) makes me tired just thinking of all the people skills I navigate daily when it comes to my own designs. but the end, the product-when it's built correctly and becomes even more beautiful than you imagine, it makes all that effort worth it.

 

[wildgans]

From german news websites:
"
Ad-hoc-announcement transmitted by DGAP:

JIL SANDER AG, the Hamburg fashion company announces, that JIL SANDER AG and designer Jil Sander have agreed to amicably terminate their cooperation.

end of ad-hoc-announcement ©DGAP 16.11.2004
"

 

[softgrey]

hi wildgans...welcome to tfs...and thanks for the info...

i'm not sure what it means...?...

 

[macchiom]

Fashion Designer Jil Sander Quits Again


In a surprise move, Jil Sander will for the second time in five years stop working for the fashion design company that bears her name. Her firm announced the decision Tuesday in Hamburg in a mandatory communication to the stock market. The German designer and her company had "agreed amicably to end their cooperation," the statement said. Jil Sander had only returned to the company in May 2003, after a three-year respite in the wake of disagreements with then Prada boss Patrizio Bertelli. Sander had sold controlling stakes in her company to the Italian Prada group in 1999. The Jil Sander label suffered profit losses from her departure and only started to recover once the designer returned to work there.

 

[softgrey]

holy cow!!!
i wonder if that means right away ...or if there will be one more season...
what the heck happened this time???

and there's another job up for grabs...

 

[Johnny]

Personally, I'm not so surprised. I don't know about the financial figures, but I didn't think new the Sander designed collections were up to much. I think she is, unfortunately, very much a "nineties" aesthetic designer (I know she was around before that but as far as I know it is during the 90s that she became properly successful). She didn't seem to me to be able to move on very much. In addition, I don't think the label could recover properly from the period where she wasn't there. I also think that the quality wasn't so good any more. It was still very expensive, but the production values seemed to have gone down. It's a shame though. I remember seeing a women's Jil Sander suit for the first time and being bowled over by the quality of it - the weight of the fabric, the depth of the colour, the cut, the simplicity. To me, that wasn't there any more.

 

[helena]

I beg to differ johnny. The spring summer Sander collection is spot on I think. She has moved on & is gaining her stride.

...and was there not a particular silvery white skirt you were raving about.....?