The Pretension Of Yves Saint Laurent

[Spike413]

Originally posted by datura001@Mar 16th, 2004 - 11:30 am
Where Tom may have went wrong was not attempting to honor a designer that was still alive and smarting from the blow of losing all that he'd worked so hard through very tumultous personal problems to keep afloat.

It has been commented on by YSL himself that Tom did not make use of archives, of movies, of yada yada yada. It hit both Yves and Pierre in a soft spot, that this Texan was coming into a revered French house to destroy what they felt was a powerful representation of a preserved sense of French culture. I think it's childish that YSL is picking favourites in the press, it almost is as if he's sticking out his tongue behind Tom's back when the fact of the matter is he was bought out. As much as you want to talk about spirit and preserving this or that, let us not forget that the most important color every season is green and whoever is flashing it is usually in a good spot. 'Tommenico' could have done whatever they pleased with that line in which ever way they saw fit and they did just that. I certainly agree with the Gucci II comment and often wished that the designs would have just been pushed into Milan, especially with that horrendous Gucci Geisha wh*re collection of a few seaons back with *horror* brown ruched mini dresses.

But this is a matter, surely, of spoiled grapes, of YSL attempting to design by satelite through another designer instead of letting them work out the process of tackling a whole country and a whole culture themselves. Does anyone honestly think that Christian Dior would be doing backflips over the 'teddy boys' that Galliano sent out on the runway? Or what about the Haute Couture mummies that could barely walk? Is that the spirit of Dior? And if it is, why in the world does Dior's Spirit seem so much like Galliano having a *moment*? Is the work of a designer to do their best work or to sit around with a ouiji board and Chanel (pun intended) a dead designer's wishes?

It seems that the potential for problems should have been as clear as day. Tom should have kept Elbaz where he was or found another designer held in great French esteem and installed them instead. The fact of the matter is, as great as his intentions were, he just was not skilled enough with his degree from Parsons in Architecture to take over the reigns of a house that is practically a museum, retaining, moisturizing, and pampering French culture. It worked at Gucci because he was able to establish, unchallenged, a vocabulary that simply was what everyone at the time wanted to hear. But again, at the end of the day, you should be able to do whatever the hell you want with things you purchase.

I agree with you completely on the whole "spoiled grapes" issue. To me it does seem like Tom just pissed Yves off in some way and therefore Yves hated Tom, not necessarily on the basis of the designs. Great post datura!

 

[Lena]

Originally posted by Spike413@Mar 16th, 2004 - 10:21 pm
Great post datura!

ditto spike

thanks for the 'on the -F- spot ' analysis datura

 

[Spike413]

Originally posted by Scott@Mar 15th, 2004 - 9:53 pm
Spike*,I hate to disagree with your comment on Chanel being feminine and airy. When Coco herself first started,everything she did was derived from menswear. So,there was always a strong 'heavy' structure in her work. The only thing feminine about it was the fact she added pearls to almost everything. Now,feminine and airy... that's really Karl's style for Chanel not Coco.

But I understand where you come from. I would suggest to you to check out some books on the works/careers of YSL and Chanel;you might get a better understanding of the original aesthetics of the two houses

As for the Alber for YSL piccies....I simple loved his style when he was there. It was in tune but somehow never seemed to look like carbon copies of the originals. That's where I think he had the upper hand compared to Tom. If Tom had done something of that sense,it most likely would have come out looking rather literal.

I'm sorry if you misunderstood my calling Chanel feminine. I never meant airy at all. To me, feminie clothing has nothing to do with clothing being light or airy. I meant simply that, no matter how androgynous Mlle. Chanel's designs might have been, there was always something she did to distiguish femininity without having to be airy or frilly. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[tott]

Originally posted by datura001@Mar 16th, 2004 - 5:30 pm
It worked at Gucci because he was able to establish, unchallenged, a vocabulary that simply was what everyone at the time wanted to hear.

Yes, because Gucci used to make only leather goods, shoes and accessories. TF did get the chance to define Gucci style precisely because it didn't exist as far as clothes go. I'm not so sure he would've been able to adapt to an already existing style and philosophy... He couldn't at YSL.

(Just an FYI in case someone reading this didn't realise: Gucci only started making clothes at the beginning of the 90's if memory serves me right.)

 

[Erzébeth]

i liked ysl's ideas and clothes but i can't say i like how he's carrying on. he agreed to sell his name, instead of just closing shop. so he doesn't really have a right to whine. and he can blame people for the death of couture all he likes, but c'est la vie. the industry changes. he needs to deal with it..

 

[mikeijames]

Originally posted by Erzébeth@Mar 17th, 2004 - 6:53 am
i liked ysl's ideas and clothes but i can't say i like how he's carrying on. he agreed to sell his name, instead of just closing shop. so he doesn't really have a right to whine. and he can blame people for the death of couture all he likes, but c'est la vie. the industry changes. he needs to deal with it..

i really want to know the inner dynamics of what happened...for a man who seems so concerned with the image of his name (and very rightfully so), i simply don't understand why he didn't choose another route. we all know the answer is money, but i'm quite sure he could live healthily on the revenues from the fragrances alone...besides, it always seems pointed at tom ford -- i want mr. pilati to start churning out silly little "the spirit of ysl" clothes like elbaz did and watch what happens to the brand...and i know this is bringing another dynamic into the mix, but if PPR starts licensing the name...won't that muddy his name so much more (think of calvin klein underwear and his namesake collection)...

this is certainly high fashion drama

 

[softgrey]

i hope pilati does not follow in the footsteps of ford or elbaz, mikeijames... i hope he is talented enough to give us his own spin on the ysl vibe...more than one way to skin a cat....meow...

 

[Spike413]

Originally posted by softgrey@Mar 17th, 2004 - 2:12 pm
i hope pilati does not follow in the footsteps of ford or elbaz, mikeijames... i hope he is talented enough to give us his own spin on the ysl vibe...more than one way to skin a cat....meow...

Personally, I'm neautral to Pilati, but I am wondering, if he turns out a bad collection, what will Yves and Pierre say? Will he get the same response that Tom did, I guess I'll have to wait and see. It may clear up whether Yves just didn't like Tom or if he actually feels the way he claims to.

 

[Deleted member 1957]

to avoid turning this into aother pro /con tf most like his work anda few didnt?

 

[Erzébeth]

Originally posted by Spike413@Mar 17th, 2004 - 3:59 pm
I am wondering, if he turns out a bad collection, what will Yves and Pierre say?

if i were ysl or stefano i'd be embarassed B)

especially if i were ysl though, after championing this new stefano

 

[Orochian]

I'm surprised no one has attempted to reference Pilati's work at Miu Miu when hypothesizing about his future collections for YSL. It was reported that he had a significant creative input there, possibly even bigger than Miuccia Prada's.

I'm too lazy to search for specific pics, but my casual recollection of Miu Miu during that era doesn't exactly bring up the most spectacular clothes. Miu Miu at its infancy as a brand was quite horrid, IMO, and it wasn't until the very recent collections that the clothes started to have their own character, instead of merely being a campier, frillier, more outlandish version of Prada.

 

[softgrey]

good observation orochian...i don't know when pilati was at miu miu...but the clothes haven't always been good...i wonder which collections pilati worked on...

 

[ignitioned32]

Originally posted by Erzébeth@Mar 17th, 2004 - 6:53 am
i liked ysl's ideas and clothes but i can't say i like how he's carrying on. he agreed to sell his name, instead of just closing shop. so he doesn't really have a right to whine. and he can blame people for the death of couture all he likes, but c'est la vie. the industry changes. he needs to deal with it..

Ofcourse he has the right to whine. He expected Tom do to good things, right? And as Lena wrote earlier,

ysl had to sold the company due to enormous expencess
they had the best -almost couture- ateliers in Paris and amazing fabrics etc.
arrogance and demolish of the style of the house of ysl, was not a part of the
deal, they trusted gucci with keeping the brand at a certain quality level,
which wasnt the case, and i'm not even talking on design level,
i'm talking production. The 'fault' may have started from Dom, but Tom did
nothing to stop the closure of the ateliers.

why and how could Yves show up to the first ysl rive gauche TF show?
when thousants of his x-employs were jobless and the brand was
going downhill? would you have been there? what for?
to congratulate the disaster? 

 

[ignitioned32]

Originally posted by Erzébeth+Mar 17th, 2004 - 6:50 pm--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Erzébeth @ Mar 17th, 2004 - 6:50 pm)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-Spike413@Mar 17th, 2004 - 3:59 pm
I am wondering, if he turns out a bad collection, what will Yves and Pierre say?

if i were ysl or stefano i'd be embarassed B)

especially if i were ysl though, after championing this new stefano [/b][/quote]
I wouldn't be, and they should not be too, embarrased if Stefano turned out a bad collection because let's face it he is a new designer at Yves' house and Yves has to endorse him as a little payback to Tom. B) And its not like he christened Steafno as the new "Saviour of couture" or something.

 

[mikeijames]

first, i remember some early miu miu having this totally funky vibe and being totally almost underground and/or strickly eurotrash (really hit and miss items)...but then again, prada used to be a lot more funky and unexpected in those days (thinking about the ostrich skirt or the mirrored bags from the late nineties)...so if he had anything to do with that maybe he could bring something funky to ysl...who knows...but what about ysl menswear?

secondly, maybe i have got this all wrong, but if i put my name behind a collection or a brand, while shifting economic tides may influence me to otherwise do things i would later regret, someone somewhere should have advised him that in selling his company he would not like all decisions made. that's the price you pay for giving up control. it's sort of like being a celebrity. your name is no longer a simple appelation, it's a marketing tool, it's a product...that's the choice you make...if he wanted to preserve ysl, he could have sought out private financing (like many other labels do) and maintained some level of control...he didn't and now he has to live with it...to blame tom ford for that is just immature.

 

[softgrey]

dude-he's....YSL....he has a history if mental instability ...he's having a nervous breakdown every other day....he's always had to go away for 'a rest' because of his mental state...he's a tortured soul...the whole thing with ford is just the kind of thing you'd expect from the drama queen himself...this is just the kind of drama that makes fashion fun and exciting....it's all part of the spectacle....let ysl say whatever he wants...it's fun to read...


ooooh-what will happen next....

 

[Spike413]

Originally posted by softgrey@Mar 18th, 2004 - 12:28 pm
dude-he's....YSL....he has a history if mental instability ...he's having a nervous breakdown every other day....he's always had to go away for 'a rest' because of his mental state...he's a tortured soul...the whole thing with ford is just the kind of thing you'd expect from the drama queen himself...this is just the kind of drama that makes fashion fun and exciting....it's all part of the spectacle....let ysl say whatever he wants...it's fun to read...


ooooh-what will happen next....

The tension mounts!
And I gotta say, even though I haven't agreed with you on this topic very much, it would be totally entertainig to see Yves throw a hissy fit cause now he doesn't think Pilati is good enough either. But hey, if you can't be a drama queen in fashion, then where can you be one?

 

[pennyfei]

I have never thought that YSL himself would like Ford's Collection for the label. They are quite different designers and i can imagine having the job title of head designer at YSL.
I applaud for what Ford has done (or has "destroyed", in YSL's words) for the house and Alexander McQueen probably made a smart decision not to take the job at YSL. (not another Givenchy experience, i guess)
As far as the new guy, Stefano Pilati, I fully support him and I also heard or read somewhere of his great work for Miu Miu and he had a great working relationship with Ford.
This guy is in the spotlight now and will garner a lot of attention and be uner quite a bit of pressure this coming October so let's see if he's good enough for the job. As i say, the only thing you can judge a designer is by looking at his collections. Any pretentious talk is useless.

 

[softgrey]

Originally posted by Spike413+Mar 18th, 2004 - 1:49 pm--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Spike413 @ Mar 18th, 2004 - 1:49 pm)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-softgrey@Mar 18th, 2004 - 12:28 pm
dude-he's....YSL....he has a history if mental instability ...he's having a nervous breakdown every other day....he's always had to go away for 'a rest' because of his mental state...he's a tortured soul...the whole thing with ford is just the kind of thing you'd expect from the drama queen himself...this is just the kind of drama that makes fashion fun and exciting....it's all part of the spectacle....let ysl say whatever he wants...it's fun to read...


ooooh-what will happen next....

The tension mounts!
And I gotta say, even though I haven't agreed with you on this topic very much, it would be totally entertainig to see Yves throw a hissy fit cause now he doesn't think Pilati is good enough either. But hey, if you can't be a drama queen in fashion, then where can you be one? [/b][/quote]
hollywood

tf's new home....

 

[kit]

I was sitting in a waiting room at the hospital , today , and there was nothing else interesting to read than the March edition of VOGUE UK .

There is a double page on the ' retirement ' of the great TF , one side on the highlights of his collections for GUCCI , and on the other , the ' highlights ' of his collections for YSL .

Needless to say , the second side was marked by the lack of anything really distinctive , apart from the peasant blouse of A/W 02 .

The GUCCI page did have SOME ' glitzy ' character , on the other hand , and I thought that , really , this contrast said it all about what has been discussed in this thread .

Tom Ford - a great showman , but NOT anybody with the calibre as a designer of the ' great ' Yves Saint Laurent , himself .

KIT