The Pretension Of Yves Saint Laurent

[kit]

Originally posted by Lena@Mar 15th, 2004 - 3:50 pm
i adore the Elbaz YSL look that you posted mikeijames

ysl had to sold the company due to enormous expencess
they had the best -almost couture- ateliers in Paris and amazing fabrics etc.
arrogance and demolish of the style of the house of ysl, was not a part of the
deal, they trusted gucci with keeping the brand at a certain quality level,
which wasnt the case, and i'm not even talking on design level,
i'm talking production. The 'fault' may have started from Dom, but Tom did
nothing to stop the closure of the ateliers.

why and how could Yves show up to the first ysl rive gauche TF show?
when thousants of his x-employs were jobless and the brand was
going downhill? would you have been there? what for?
to congratulate the disaster?

btw, Elbaz & Hedi two of the brightest stars of todays fashion,
were both working at ysl rive gauche before Tom&Dom took control...
The rest is history ..right?

RIGHT ON BABY

KIT

 

[Spike413]

Originally posted by softgrey@Mar 15th, 2004 - 3:26 pm
does anyone remember this collection by elbaz for ysl---genius...
fall2000
style.com doesn't ahve the pictures up anymore...does anyone know where esle i can find that collection?

No offense, everyone has their own tastes of course but, what is so great about that? I personally don't like it, but lets say I did, even then it's only basic garments, nothing new or revolutionary. Perhaps I'm a bit naive, but is that really anything special?

 

[softgrey]

Originally posted by PrinceOfCats@Mar 15th, 2004 - 3:43 pm

oes anyone remember this collection by elbaz for ysl

It looks like Dior Homme

well, prince...ysl did basically invent androgyny dressing with le smoking...

OMG thank you kit!!!! everyone who has any further questions-(spike et al)...i
refer you to this link....this is how to keep the spirit of the house while making it wearable and relevant...if you think ford has been doing so... then i quite frankly do not believe you are very familiar with ysl's work...maybe you have some homework to do, my darlings....

here's a taste of elbaz's genius....i wear this entire look sans hat....

 

[softgrey]

une otre...

 

[softgrey]

and then....

 

[softgrey]

Originally posted by Acid+Mar 15th, 2004 - 3:49 pm--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Acid @ Mar 15th, 2004 - 3:49 pm)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-softgrey@Mar 15th, 2004 - 8:44 pm
more---wow...how'd he come up with this one

i dont think the clothes were particularly bad..........well sometimes

but its more the fact that they WERENT YSL, as a creative director its your job to reinvent the house but at the same time to maintain some sort of signiature

tom ford decided to make YSL 'gucci with ruffles' [/b][/quote]
that is EXACTLY right!!....that is why...even though some of the pieces ford designed were lovely...they would probably have been more appropriate on the gucci runway...

thanks acid for that very clear insight..

 

[Spike413]

Originally posted by softgrey+Mar 15th, 2004 - 4:09 pm--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(softgrey @ Mar 15th, 2004 - 4:09 pm)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-PrinceOfCats@Mar 15th, 2004 - 3:43 pm

oes anyone remember this collection by elbaz for ysl

It looks like Dior Homme

well, prince...ysl did basically invent androgyny dressing with le smoking...

OMG thank you kit!!!! everyone who has any further questions-(spike et al)...i
refer you to this link....this is how to keep the spirit of the house while making it wearable and relevant...if you think ford has been doing so... then i quite frankly do not believe you are very familiar with ysl's work...maybe you have some homework to do, my darlings....

here's a taste of elbaz's genius....i wear this entire look sans hat.... [/b][/quote]
Forgive me for being quite so naive. Let's face it, I have liked Tom Ford's work, so I couldn't possibly know real fashion if it hit me in the ***. But to me, darling, keeping the spirit of a house has absolutly nothing to do directly with specific designs. Spirit, as defined by Webster's is a special attitude or frame of mind. Using this definition, the spirit of the house, from my perspective, is what is presented to the world. Not literally, but beyond the clothes. For instance, The spirit of Chanel is feminine, sophisticated and chic. Yes, this is related to what Mlle. Chanel did, but, to me you do not need to design an outfit that looks like it could have been designed by the orignal designer for it to be true to what a house represents. So that is why I feel that while Mr. Ford didn't necessarily do what Yves would have done, he did stay true to the mood of the house, the spirit one might say!

I mentioned the Le Smoking because, to me, that suit represents a similar asthetic between Tom and Yves. Like I said at least once before, they poth presented a strong, empowered, chic woman. Very simialr wouldn't you say?

Mabye your solution for keeping true to the spirit and all of that b.s. would be for Tom to just have re-issued, let's say, the mondrian dress, but! to make it relevent......he shorten the hem a bit, and change it from an a-line silhouette to a straight one. Is this your idea to staying true to Yves and making it relevent, or do u have something in mind like that, basic, nothing special outfit you suggested?

As for my familiarity with Yves work, I did say, that I am young, I haven't been alive long enough to know all of his most notable hits, but I have learned about what he felt a woman should be.

 

[faust]

Originally posted by Spike413+Mar 15th, 2004 - 4:37 pm--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Spike413 @ Mar 15th, 2004 - 4:37 pm)</div><div class='quotemain'>

Originally posted by softgrey@Mar 15th, 2004 - 4:09 pm
<!--QuoteBegin-PrinceOfCats

@Mar 15th, 2004 - 3:43 pm

oes anyone remember this collection by elbaz for ysl

It looks like Dior Homme

well, prince...ysl did basically invent androgyny dressing with le smoking...

OMG thank you kit!!!! everyone who has any further questions-(spike et al)...i
refer you to this link....this is how to keep the spirit of the house while making it wearable and relevant...if you think ford has been doing so... then i quite frankly do not believe you are very familiar with ysl's work...maybe you have some homework to do, my darlings....

here's a taste of elbaz's genius....i wear this entire look sans hat....

Forgive me for being quite so naive. Let's face it, I have liked Tom Ford's work, so I couldn't possibly know real fashion if it hit me in the ***. But to me, darling, keeping the spirit of a house has absolutly nothing to do directly with specific designs. Spirit, as defined by Webster's is a special attitude or frame of mind. Using this definition, the spirit of the house, from my perspective, is what is presented to the world. Not literally, but beyond the clothes. For instance, The spirit of Chanel is feminine, sophisticated and chic. Yes, this is related to what Mlle. Chanel did, but, to me you do not need to design an outfit that looks like it could have been designed by the orignal designer for it to be true to what a house represents. So that is why I feel that while Mr. Ford didn't necessarily do what Yves would have done, he did stay true to the mood of the house, the spirit one might say!

I mentioned the Le Smoking because, to me, that suit represents a similar asthetic between Tom and Yves. Like I said at least once before, they poth presented a strong, empowered, chic woman. Very simialr wouldn't you say?

Mabye your solution for keeping true to the spirit and all of that b.s. would be for Tom to just have re-issued, let's say, the mondrian dress, but! to make it relevent......he shorten the hem a bit, and change it from an a-line silhouette to a straight one. Is this your idea to staying true to Yves and making it relevent, or do u have something in mind like that, basic, nothing special outfit you suggested?

As for my familiarity with Yves work, I did say, that I am young, I haven't been alive long enough to know all of his most notable hits, but I have learned about what he felt a woman should be. [/b][/quote]
The problem is, Tom didn't even present the spirit of the house the way you described it. And, honestly, what's the point of buying a label to make it Gucch II (I'm going to use that term fron now on, it's very fitting)? And keeping the spirit of the house does not mean copying previous designer's clothes, but keeping the clothes in the same line that the house has become famous for. Margiela for Hermes was a prime example of that.

 

[softgrey]

did you even look at the link spike?...i give up...anyone else care to try...

and excuse me...as for chanel... doesn't dear karl send SOME version of the original CHANEL jacket down the runway year after year?!....you are just reinforcing what it means to keep the spirit of the house and contradicting yourself....

i'm not trying to insult you...although you are definitely taking this personally, but if you are really serious about trying to understand what some people's objections are...then you have got to understand the history...it absolutely matters...and you don't have to have been alive when it happend...i wasn't either....

if you have a different opinion that's fine...but you're not going to convince anyone else to change their minds if your only argument is ...i like tom ford...

 

[Lena]

Originally posted by Acid+Mar 15th, 2004 - 11:49 pm--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Acid @ Mar 15th, 2004 - 11:49 pm)</div><div class='quotemain'> <!--QuoteBegin-softgrey@Mar 15th, 2004 - 8:44 pm
more---wow...how'd he come up with this one

tom ford decided to make YSL 'gucci with ruffles' [/b][/quote]
lets be honest, his clothes were particularly bad
and yes acid, you made a great point here,
well, ysl is no gucci with ruffles

grey, i adore the last ELbaz ysl that you posted,
i adore him since he started at ysl, he's a real great designer
and it was a shame to get kicked out by Ford

but anyway, few years later,
we can see where both Elbaz and Hedi are heading
while waiting to see how well TF will do in Hollywood
i hope he teams up with JS, they will make a great team

btw
B) no hard feelings to all the respectable TF hardcore fans here,
this is an interesting -and chic- discussion

 

[Spike413]

Originally posted by softgrey@Mar 15th, 2004 - 4:47 pm
did you even look at the link spike?...i give up...anyone else care to try...

and excuse me...as for chanel... doesn't dear karl send SOME version of the original CHANEL jacket down the runway year after year?!....you are just reinforcing what it means to keep the spirit of the house and contradicting yourself....

i'm not trying to insult you...although you are definitely taking this personally, but if you are really serious about trying to understand what some people's objections are...then you have got to understand the history...it absolutely matters...and you don't have to have been alive when it happend...i wasn't either....

if you have a different opinion that's fine...but you're not going to convince anyone else to change their minds if your only argument is ...i like tom ford...

Perhaps people (Myself) wouldn't take you replies quite so personally if you didn't have such a superior tone when you address them, as if they are just naive little name-brand whores. You're choice of words is brash, and to be honest, you come off a little pompous. BTW, the link didn't get posted, or at least I didn't see it, so no, I didn't look at it. I'm not trying to make people change their opinion, but I am trying to offer a new perspective.

When I said that I wasn't even alive at the time of Yves hits, I meant it to say, I'm 17, I don't know much about fashion history before Versace's death. But I am familiar enough with what designers stand for.

As for contradicting myself, yes Karl does send some variation of a Chanel jacket down the runway every season. Tom did send down a variation of a suit every season, the suit being the history, but redone in a new way that may not necessarily seem YSL, but in a way, kind of is.

Please, don't give up, I may not want you to teach me about fashion in it's purest form, but at the very least, you keep me occupied!

 

[faust]

no fighting

 

[mikeijames]

no one questions the outright artistry of elbaz and slimane's work of late however i don't think that either captured this oh-so-elusive "spirit of saint laurent" in a way that tom ford did not. i am wowed by the work of elbaz at lanvin, but he was not in that moment at ysl. and while slimane's work speaks for itself, i think that you could switch looks from dior homme and the ysl men's look (from slimane) and not even blink. slimane's look is as trademark as ford's...it's a matter of taste and personal choice, not really denying the spirit of saint laurent or not.

additionally, what conglomerate do you know of that, once it acquires a house, makes no radical changes to insure profitablity. remember jil sander and prada? lvmh (and pick your brand)? and let's just take a look at the other houses? i don't know why ford has been so demonized when chanel would spit if she saw some of lagerfelds creations and christian dior would change his name if he were to witness any of galliano's spectacles?

i think that people must just have something personal against ford's aesthetic? bc even elbaz designed things for ysl that had nothing to do with ysl persay and everything to do with his personal vision (the dress attached from the acclaimed 2000 collection looks exactly like his work for lanvin)!

 

[softgrey]

Originally posted by mikeijames@Mar 15th, 2004 - 5:30 pm
no one questions the outright artistry of elbaz and slimane's work of late however i don't think that either captured this oh-so-elusive "spirit of saint laurent" in a way that tom ford did not. i am wowed by the work of elbaz at lanvin, but he was not in that moment at ysl. and while slimane's work speaks for itself, i think that you could switch looks from dior homme and the ysl men's look (from slimane) and not even blink. slimane's look is as trademark as ford's...it's a matter of taste and personal choice, not really denying the spirit of saint laurent or not.

additionally, what conglomerate do you know of that, once it acquires a house, makes no radical changes to insure profitablity. remember jil sander and prada? lvmh (and pick your brand)? and let's just take a look at the other houses? i don't know why ford has been so demonized when chanel would spit if she saw some of lagerfelds creations and christian dior would change his name if he were to witness any of galliano's spectacles?

i think that people must just have something personal against ford's aesthetic? bc even elbaz designed things for ysl that had nothing to do with ysl persay and everything to do with his personal vision (the dress attached from the acclaimed 2000 collection looks exactly like his work for lanvin)!

i think what you said about elbaz is true...his work at lanvin is similar to his best work at ysl...that just means that his own aesthetic is close to that of the original master and that it was a good fit...same with hedi...the designer who takes over another perrson's label would have to share a similar aesthetic..

i also agree with what you said about chanel and dior...and am not happy about what's going on over there anymore than what happened at ysl...i just say...if you want to do something different, then start your own company....galliano should be doing the freak show ONLY at galliano...why does he have to do both?...many of us have shared this opinion on other threads about those designers...not just tf...

and as lena said..look where alber is and look at where tom is now...excellent point which pretty much speaks for itself...

as for companies making changes when they take over...you mentioned jil sander?...that obviously turned out to be a mistake, so that's not a very good example is it?

 

[As You Like It]

Originally posted by Scott@Mar 15th, 2004 - 1:50 pm
...All the collections he did,never had any traces nor even an atmosphere pertaining to that legacy. The only thing that wasn't changed was the label itself. All in all,Tom was never in tune with Yves did....

Thank you!

I'm a huge fan of vintage YSL, and if the house can stand a return to the innovative, yet somehow classic effects of Dior-trained young St. Laurent, then more power to them.

 

[Scott]

Spike*,I hate to disagree with your comment on Chanel being feminine and airy. When Coco herself first started,everything she did was derived from menswear. So,there was always a strong 'heavy' structure in her work. The only thing feminine about it was the fact she added pearls to almost everything. Now,feminine and airy... that's really Karl's style for Chanel not Coco.

But I understand where you come from. I would suggest to you to check out some books on the works/careers of YSL and Chanel;you might get a better understanding of the original aesthetics of the two houses

As for the Alber for YSL piccies....I simple loved his style when he was there. It was in tune but somehow never seemed to look like carbon copies of the originals. That's where I think he had the upper hand compared to Tom. If Tom had done something of that sense,it most likely would have come out looking rather literal.

 

[Spacemiu]

Tom ford compeatelyd istorted and disrored what Yves saint Laurent is about, YSL is abotu strong modern feminity that is classic and sophisticated.


If you look at msot of YSl's past collections youw ill find many pieces taht are still modern and timeless, becuas he was one of the main creators of "classic" mdoern style, I dount think any body can say that about tom ford, and if they did they would be lieing to themselevs.

Ysl is not particularly my style, but I respect him veyr much for what he has done.

 

[Scott]

Agreed. That's where I find the real talent of someone like Elbaz in that he is capable of creating classics that can and will withstand the trends or the hype of the times. That's what YSL was such a master at. He had his own niche and he did not play to industry types but for the customers he dressed. That's what I find Tom Ford has failed at not thinking of the actual wearer. I really think Tom despised women by putting in those triteful get-ups---they were hardly wearable.

 

[ignitioned32]

Excellent points, Lena and Space! I completely agree with what you guys said. Basically, there's nothing for me to say.

Though, I have to admit some pieces that Ford commision to make at YSL appealed to me. I would have liked those (but not exactly wear), let's say, if he did it under his own label.

 

[datura001]

Where Tom may have went wrong was not attempting to honor a designer that was still alive and smarting from the blow of losing all that he'd worked so hard through very tumultous personal problems to keep afloat.

It has been commented on by YSL himself that Tom did not make use of archives, of movies, of yada yada yada. It hit both Yves and Pierre in a soft spot, that this Texan was coming into a revered French house to destroy what they felt was a powerful representation of a preserved sense of French culture. I think it's childish that YSL is picking favourites in the press, it almost is as if he's sticking out his tongue behind Tom's back when the fact of the matter is he was bought out. As much as you want to talk about spirit and preserving this or that, let us not forget that the most important color every season is green and whoever is flashing it is usually in a good spot. 'Tommenico' could have done whatever they pleased with that line in which ever way they saw fit and they did just that. I certainly agree with the Gucci II comment and often wished that the designs would have just been pushed into Milan, especially with that horrendous Gucci Geisha wh*re collection of a few seaons back with *horror* brown ruched mini dresses.

But this is a matter, surely, of spoiled grapes, of YSL attempting to design by satelite through another designer instead of letting them work out the process of tackling a whole country and a whole culture themselves. Does anyone honestly think that Christian Dior would be doing backflips over the 'teddy boys' that Galliano sent out on the runway? Or what about the Haute Couture mummies that could barely walk? Is that the spirit of Dior? And if it is, why in the world does Dior's Spirit seem so much like Galliano having a *moment*? Is the work of a designer to do their best work or to sit around with a ouiji board and Chanel (pun intended) a dead designer's wishes?

It seems that the potential for problems should have been as clear as day. Tom should have kept Elbaz where he was or found another designer held in great French esteem and installed them instead. The fact of the matter is, as great as his intentions were, he just was not skilled enough with his degree from Parsons in Architecture to take over the reigns of a house that is practically a museum, retaining, moisturizing, and pampering French culture. It worked at Gucci because he was able to establish, unchallenged, a vocabulary that simply was what everyone at the time wanted to hear. But again, at the end of the day, you should be able to do whatever the hell you want with things you purchase.