Why Is The Fashion Industry In The State That It's In Today?

[lookatme]

Ah yes, my favourite thought-terminating cliché: whataboutism. We're not on an NBA or a rap forum discussing the hip hop industry, so it's not relevant to our discussion at the moment. Neither is the lack of women in the sciences or medicine, or the lack of men in pink-collar industries.

Why not? Whataboutism? You mean…the word you get to use to not answer my question? I didn’t terminate the thought…you did!

The NBA is just as much a global, multi-billion dollar, consumer-oriented industry. Hip hop and rap is too, as well as being a creative industry of musical and visual artists, marketers, executives, photographers, directors, advertisers, stylists, etc. just like fashion. Both of these industries are consumed worldwide by people of all different backgrounds and demographics -which is not exactly reflected in the makeup of those working in either the NBA or rap and hip hop.

So what makes fashion different or exceptional in your mind that it must become diverse, and its lack of diversity is an issue, whereas other industries are hypothetically exempt?

 

[blueorchid]

Why would I discuss completely different industries on this forum and change the topic: WHY IS THE FASHION INDUSTRY IN THE STATE THAT IT'S IN TODAY? Of course I won't entertain stupid asides to change the discussion. Why don't you tell me why the fashion industry SHOULDN'T be diverse? All kinds of people like fashion. Why shouldn't it be reflective?

White males makeup 88.3% of the aviation industry. People of all ages, races, cultures, religions, abilities, fly... Why don't we discuss the aviation industry instead of hip hop and the NBA, then?

Also, I'm sure you think rap/hip-hop and the NBA aren't diverse based on the musicians and players, not the executives at the top... same goes for fashion. 92% of the team presidents of the NBA are white. From the music industry, in 2021 86% of executives were men and 86% were white.

 

[Lola701]

I must live in my ivory tower but i think fashion is (or was) one of the most diverse industries before the woke movement. Woke and political correctness kind of killed it all… because now eveeybody is washed out and even less diverse.

I can't take people who say "diversity" ruined fashion seriously lol... they wouldn't have been in this mess if they had incrementally been more "diverse" in the first place. Now it just feels like a giant over-correction "We were ALWAYS diverse 😤"

Those two comments really touched me personally because I worked in fashion in the 2000’s and much like @Creative i had that impression that fashion was a very diverse industry.
Before joining it, I bought magazines, saw black models, was exposed to a lot of US TV programs and there were black figures, my grandmother was seamstress at a fashion house and so, fashion as an industry, open to the music industry looked like a very diverse world.

But when I joined in, I realized that it was more complex than that.
There was more diversity in the US or in the UK than in Paris but Paris was embracing diversity only from the US.

In Paris, it was very obvious because when you wanted to look at diversity, it was almost empty. Ok the Americans in Paris embraced diversity beyond models. You had Karl, Azzedine, JPG and others… But I realized that it wasn’t a designer issue. There were gatekeepers.

I also have to admit that fashion wasn’t seen as the glamorous industry it has become in the 2010’s. When someone’s child wanted to work in fashion, it was met with a lot of stigmas and seen as not serious. So the industry was a minorities thing. So in a way it was normal to be a minority in minorities. Fashion was about people who either were very passionate or had enough money to support that dream.

What @blueorchid said however is right because when fashion became really mainstream around 2006/2008, it was the moment to be more inclusive. The models were the face of that issue but it was true. Italy became a strong creative and commercial force in the 2000’s and their implicit racism became an implicit norm by the simple form of following.
So, things were easier when it was black Americans coming to Europe. I think about Lawrence Steele, Edward Buchanan or even Eric Wright (who was Karl’s number 2 for years) but the talents who were there didn’t have much opportunities.

I hate the woke movement but it’s the price fashion pays for being in it bubble. And the crazy thing about diversity was that what became a question around models (whether they sells more or not) became an undercover narrative for all talents.

And what I think is sad about Diversity post « Woke » movement was that it became politic and it went to some extremes.

 

[lookatme]

Why would I discuss completely different industries on this forum and change the topic: WHY IS THE FASHION INDUSTRY IN THE STATE THAT IT'S IN TODAY? Of course I won't entertain stupid asides to change the discussion. Why don't you tell me why the fashion industry SHOULDN'T be diverse?

White males makeup 88.3% of the aviation industry. People of all ages, races, cultures, religions, abilities, fly... Why don't we discuss the aviation industry instead of hip hop and the NBA, then?

Also, I'm sure you think rap/hip-hop and the NBA aren't diverse based on the musicians and players, not the executives at the top... same goes for fashion.

What is wrong with certain industries, careers or lifestyles attracting certain groups of people? To your point, if aviation is 88.3% white male, is that proof positive that there’s discrimination? Or is it an indication of white men being interested in becoming a pilot more than other groups are? If NBA players and rap and hip hop artists are largely made up of black individuals, does that mean other people are gatekept out? Or does it say something about the interests and inclinations of many in the black community? Is the largely male makeup of STEM mean women are excluded on purpose? Or does it show that men want to pursue a career in that field more than most women do?

We have to be honest that fashion as an industry (the only industry you’re interested in talking about here on this forum) is an invention of European culture. Every society on earth has a history of folk costume and design - but as an artistic endeavor and as a functioning industry, it is undeniably an offshoot and creation of European civilization (even more specifically French, Italian and English society…there’s a reason it’s London, Milan and Paris…not Budapest, Helsinki and Athens).

So, I’m less bothered that for most of its existence it was a more Eurocentric industry. I’m not arguing for it to be exclusively European or for it to actively turn others away, but I’m also not mad at it for being European. And why can’t it be?

Go tell Bollywood to stop being so Indian, then.

***I also agree with Lola, that pre-2008, what really defined working in the industry was being 100% obsessed. You had to have sought it out from your own will and curiosity, made sacrifices, potentially confused or let down your family…you had to pay your dues to those in charge and prove yourself amongst your peers. Now that the industry is completely mainstream, it is largely populated by people who would never have pursued the industry before…they simply would not have made the cut in an earlier time. And that, I think, has been the cause of so much of the degradation of the fashion industry over the last decade. It’s run by and made up of many individuals who simply aren’t really meant to be here participating in it. If the democratization of fashion has so specifically coincided with its downfall, can we not argue that exclusivity was a crucial part of its Golden Era?

 

[blueorchid]

So, I’m less bothered that for most of its existence it was a more Eurocentric industry. I’m not arguing for it to be exclusively European or for it to actively turn others away, but I’m also not mad at it for being European. And why can’t it be?

Where did I say I’m mad at the fashion industry for being European?

I truly think the fashion industry is horrifyingly stagnant at the moment. Why are other voices not allowed? If all money is good money to the fashion executives, why is it bad to encourage diversity? I feel like you’re really thinking in some woke freedom fighter out there, but I’m just someone who legitimately grew up in a multicultural society and don’t think diversity is a bad thing? 🤷🏼‍♀️

 

[NYLA22]

That’s it basically…

I would add social networks to the equation. People these days live to show other people they have money. Fashion has become more than ever a status symbol. Before people wanted to portray a certain look, these days is all about making people believe you are rich. That’s why Hermès bags are so famous.

And trends get so burned in a few months… Overexposure is terrible.

Yes, it's like the Birkin is now the unofficial mascot of the Real Housewives franchise.

 

[Creative]

I get what you mean, but I feel many people write from the US, where there is more diversity in the streets as well. In some European countries, 20 years ago there were basically no black people and today, in some countries, only in the big cities. I just checked in Google and only 2% of the population in Europe is black.

Fashion has always been a job for the elites. Aristocrats, rich people… and considering how white and reluctant they are to diversity, I feel that, compared to other industries, fashion has always been a freer and more diverse place.

Of course, the amount of black people in the HQ is not 50%- 50%, but considering that the majority of the population is white here, I’ve seen quite a lot of Moroccan, for instance, in top management in HQ offices.

 

[blueorchid]

Fashion has always been a job for the elites.

Not really, in all reality couturiers had more in common with "the help" than the aristocracy.

 

[Lola701]

Not really, in all reality couturiers had more in common with "the help" than the aristocracy.

Yes but it really changed with Chanel. She was the first to really enter the High Society and living the life of her clients. It became even more prevalent with Valentino, Yves and Karl.

 

[Creative]

And today as well… all the successful people in fashion (almost all) come from rich environments… Considering you will only get a job if you studied in CSM, la Chambre or Marangoni, very expensive for European standards, you get an idea of how elite the fashion world is. Also in HQ, many people from Bocconi and top business universities. Rich managers would get as interns the children of their rich friends… it’s a never ending circle now.

Victoire de Castellane, Cordelia, Paloma… Faahion has always been ruled by the elites. Dior was quite rich himself, Lelong, Gaby…

 

[LoveFashion25]

I think to be exact, the peak was right before the financial crisis of 2008. Up until then, fashion was on an upwards trajectory with a mix of independents and conglomerate brands finding their own success within a vast market — the playing field was relatively equal. After 2008, the repercussions of the crisis was felt especially hard by smaller brands who struggled with new buying patterns from consumers worldwide as well as the arrival of the then unknown landscape of social media which as a marketing device has, in my opinion, f***ed up the industry.

Budgets that were maybe allocated to collection development were funnelled into marketing. The conglomerates who were able to rebound more easily from the crisis ate up the market with a more agressive mentality — "who can outdo who", for smaller brands, it became increasingly impossible to match the big brands, without necessarily there being an alternative route.

Like it or not, over the decade post 2008, data and algorithms have become a cornerstone of many big brands. Commercial teams were no longer prepared to take risks are more and more diluted designs or collection plans that are 'like' this brand or that brand became the norm(core). Multi-brand boutiques for example were more willing to stock Gucci on consignment than invest in an independent brand with a smaller following.

The nail in the coffin was Covid. We are living in an age where money talks and point of view and technique no longer hold as much value as it did before. The handful of new emerging designers that find success today are based on either a gimmick or strong marketing but in terms of creative evolution remain stagnant (Nensi Dojaka, LDSS, Coperni).

I do believe that fashion is like a pendulum, however I fear that the industry has gone past the point of no return.

Past the point of no return? Then what would replace it?

 

[LoveFashion25]

What did yall think of the vogue: in the 90s documentary? It really does seem like the industry loves to relive the 90s so much. Why is that?

 

[lookatme]

Past the point of no return? Then what would replace it?

In my mind, as someone who deeply loves fashion….

I think the ONLY solution to the miserable state the industry is in now is to basically close the doors and focus entirely on private client appointments. At the most, maybe some bags and shoes and fragrances for the public to purchase.

But the shows and media mania and endless merchandise and never ending new and pointless jobs at these companies…it’s just beyond. It has to end.

In my mind, these companies have gotten too big for their own good…they cannot sustain their size and the bigger they get, the riskier every decision becomes for them which ultimately makes them risk averse and neurotic…the stakes are too high.

At one point, about a hundred years ago, a client would go to a maison and place a private order of custom pieces for their wardrobe. I feel like that model of business should come back. It would leave a lot of people in the dust, but it’s necessary.

Those who cannot afford that would shop at midmarket stores in their budgets.

 

[LoveFashion25]

In my mind, as someone who deeply loves fashion….

I think the ONLY solution to the miserable state the industry is in now is to basically close the doors and focus entirely on private client appointments. At the most, maybe some bags and shoes and fragrances for the public to purchase.

But the shows and media mania and endless merchandise and never ending new and pointless jobs at these companies…it’s just beyond. It has to end.

In my mind, these companies have gotten too big for their own good…they cannot sustain their size and the bigger they get, the riskier every decision becomes for them which ultimately makes them risk averse and neurotic…the stakes are too high.

At one point, about a hundred years ago, a client would go to a maison and place a private order of custom pieces for their wardrobe. I feel like that model of business should come back. It would leave a lot of people in the dust, but it’s necessary.

Those who cannot afford that would shop at midmarket stores in their budgets.

Interesting. So we should go back to that and then in about 20-30 years return to what we've been used to in fashion?

 

[lookatme]

Interesting. So we should go back to that and then in about 20-30 years return to what we've been used to in fashion?

It’s a very complicated and perhaps impossible concept - but if it existed and worked before, I can’t imagine why it hypothetically couldn’t work again…not in an identical way, but in whatever way was appropriate for the “now.”

Where it would go in 20-30 years? Who could say. Would it inevitably wind up again right back where we are now? Possibly? Even so - would a reset be the worst thing?

I think the industry has reached a moment where it has to decide if it wants to be about fashion or about entertainment. There was a time - late 90’s/early 00’s - where the two worlds met and it was electric…but entertainment has eaten fashion whole. I look at the shows now and it almost doesn’t even register as design anymore…just another marketing event. And I don’t think it can continue on that way for much longer.

 

[blueorchid]

Fashion exists outside the realm of high fashion. Battening down the hatches is so the peons don’t get to see it with their dirty eyes is ludicrous.

 

[lookatme]

Fashion exists outside the realm of high fashion. Battening down the hatches is so the peons don’t get to see it with their dirty eyes is ludicrous.

Inviting them in with their “dirty eyes” is why we’re in this mess to begin with. Most people have no business being interested in, involved in or consuming fashion. Period.

The democratization of fashion destroyed the industry, so I don’t see why we’d want to figure out a way to kick their “dirty eyes” out.

The industry was gate kept for a long time - time to throw the gates up again.

 

[susseinmcswanny]

I think there might be a disconnect in separating the idea of "fashion" from "industry". Considering the industrialization OF *fashion* seems kind of self explanatory of "what went wrong" lol.

 

[susseinmcswanny]

*Hit's the pen once* my name is Ted Kaczynski and we need to RETURN to WILD NATURE

 

[ecnerretneerg]

I’m curious if you’re as concerned about the lack of diversity in say, the NBA? Or in the rap and hip hop industry? Or are you mostly bothered by a space that was largely white for a period of time?

I actually laughed out loud. This was a very stupid comment.