Why Is The Fashion Industry In The State That It's In Today?

[lookatme]

I actually laughed out loud. This was a very stupid comment.

Why? Care to explain why I’m so stupid?

 

[lookatme]

When you ask a question like that, you never get an answer…you just get screeching and insults and name calling and histrionics…but never a calm and collected answer?

You can call me and my question stupid, but what’s your actual answer?

 

[philophile]

Lol as if Western fashion exists in a vacuum. Fashion exists in every single culture in the world and it did since the very beginning. In fact, a lot of Western fashion has done cultural appropiation for as long as it exists, adopting elements from other cultures, so to think that just an elite or a certain demographic is entitled to like it is so absurd and ridiculous I can't even.....

 

[philophile]

I can only imagine someone constantly ranting about only 'rich white people being entitled to fashion' being 90 years old. Welcome to the era of globalization! Neocolonialism has its downsides too, I guess. So you think you can only force colonialized peoples to adopt Western socio-economic, political, and religious standards but not the fashion? Are you serious?
And with the rise of the internet and social media it has become a global culture for the past 20 years. Sorry to have to break those news to you.

 

[thismortalcoil]

Past the point of no return? Then what would replace it?

What I mean is, I don't see the conglomerates at any point ever saying "hey guys, let's maybe calm things down a bit — we'll stop doing mega shows, we'll stop giving tones of money to Vogue etc. so that we no longer have total look editorials, we'll stop making endless content for social media, we'll halt all plans for turning the maisons into holistic lifestyle brands with cafes, resorts, museums etc.". Their modus operandi of exponential growth is what is killing the industry. In all honestly I don't think anything will or can replace it.
Perharps the only thing that can actually change are consumer standards — a return to niche brands with

 

[thismortalcoil]

(I hit publish by accident)..... a return to niche brands with a true POV, quality in fabrics and craftsmanship, and hey - let's throw in an 'eco-consious' mindset because in truth, that's not a bad thing. It's not like we need more brands, the market is saturated, we need better quality.
But in order for niche independents to drive this change, there needs to be (a) a designer or brand that is able to show up and really make an impact - and I'm not talking with stunts, I mean, like a new age McQueen, Galliano, Chalayan, Theyskens, Branquinho, Deemeulemeester, but by god, we all know that the new generation are lacking in the same skills (b) goodwill from publications and the press to bolster independents (c) wholesalers to actually buy collections from independents to keep their businesses afloat.
Maybe then, and only then, will the industry shift if the independents are actually giving the conglomerates a run for their money in terms of impact...that is, before they get offered the job to join the conglomerates.

 

[Creative]

What I mean is, I don't see the conglomerates at any point ever saying "hey guys, let's maybe calm things down a bit — we'll stop doing mega shows, we'll stop giving tones of money to Vogue etc. so that we no longer have total look editorials, we'll stop making endless content for social media, we'll halt all plans for turning the maisons into holistic lifestyle brands with cafes, resorts, museums etc.". Their modus operandi of exponential growth is what is killing the industry. In all honestly I don't think anything will or can replace it.
Perharps the only thing that can actually change are consumer standards — a return to niche brands with

That’s true… they are not going to stop. I think there will be no important changes in the future. It will keep like this for a long while. As I said, it will probably be like the car/watch industry in terms of product and approach. In fact, Chanel, Dior and Hermès kind of already are.

The niche brands these days don’t work. Before, I could say Alaïa was sort of “niche”. Not that they are niche, but the approach kind of aimed to: Tom Ford tried to be with no success. Phoebe Philo will probably fail as well… If you don’t have a big group holding your back, it’s very hard to succeed and meet expectations in terms on production, logistics… every small brand sold a big part to LVMH or Kering in the past.


And I’m sorry but high fashion, as we discuss it in this forum, is a European thing. Other things are Asian, American, African… but high fashion it’s not.

It’s like saying, idk, that porcelain is French.
Hmm, no, we have Limoges, but that’s a Chinese thing 🤷🏻‍♂️ Not everything needs to be from everywhere, that’s literally what I think a terrible approach to diversity is, which, btw, is the one that you have in fashion atm.

And I don’t know why people get mad when I say people that work in fashion are rich. Majority of them are. It’s a fact and certainly not my fault. I’m just saying what I’ve seen in the 10 years I’ve been working in fashion. Fashion excludes poor people and wants to be as elitist as it can. Sad but true.

 

[philophile]

And I’m sorry but high fashion, as we discuss it in this forum, is a European thing. Other things are Asian, American, African… but high fashion it’s not.

It’s like saying, idk, that porcelain is French.
Hmm, no, we have Limoges, but that’s a Chinese thing 🤷🏻‍♂️ Not everything needs to be from everywhere, that’s literally what I think a terrible approach to diversity is, which, btw, is the one that you have in fashion atm.

I made a reasonable argument above against everything you are saying. European high fashion is forced on other (colonized) cultures, so yes, people of these countries are not only raised liking it but also want to consume it, so if you are arguing with this against diversity and inclusivity in European fashion, that's absurd. You are also absolutely neglecting many potential markets around the world (again: we don't live in the 60s, we live in an era of a global market).

Second, if European fashion is adopting elements from other cultures, why not include the people? With globalization, everyone in the world is exposed to Western fashion and not only exposed but bombarded with advertisement, so you are expecting people to buy the fashion, but not be included in the production/advertisement/creation process? That's not how it works.

There is nothing European about Afghan coats (called Pennylane in Britain) or any of the many African/Asian/etc elements Galliano was designing in many of his collections. Nothing, absolutely nothing exists in vacuum.

 

[Creative]

I actually laughed out loud. This was a very stupid comment.

It’s not. Most of the things depends on the context… if the context is white, the outcome will be white. It the context is black, the outcome will be black.

If high fashion started in Europe, a very white continent, it’s normal that people in the industry tend to be more white. If rap was born in the states by afroamerican people, makes sense that there are more black rapers.

 

[Creative]

I made a reasonable argument above against everything you are saying. European high fashion is forced on other (colonized) cultures, so yes, people of these countries are not only raised liking it but also want to consume it, so if you are arguing with this against diversity and inclusivity in European fashion, that's absurd. You are also absolutely neglecting many potential markets around the world (again: we don't live in the 60s, we live in an era of a global market).

Second, if European fashion is adopting elements from other cultures, why not include the people? With globalization, everyone in the world is exposed to Western fashion and not only exposed but bombarded with advertisement, so you are expecting people to buy the fashion, but not be included in the production/advertisement/creation process? That's not how it works.

It’s how it works actually… That’s why many people with non-white features want to look white and love the European things and reject their culture.

The reason why they include people of color is because if they don’t, they will get cancelled. And they won’t get cancelled by the potential POC customers (who probably don’t give a sh!t), but by white people who needs inclusivity for the sake of it to feel better.

 

[philophile]

It’s not. Most of the things depends on the context… if the context is white, the outcome will be white. It the context is black, the outcome will be black.

If high fashion started in Europe, a very white continent, it’s normal that people in the industry tend to be more white. If rap was born in the states by afroamerican people, makes sense that there are more black rapers.

The original comment from that white supremacist user was one of the dumbest things I've ever read in my life. Whataboutisms as arguments are not very smart and coming from a person that continously advocates for fashion being just for white, rich people, it denotes farm boy/girl education level. "Diversity in basketball, hip hop, etc?", you just don't get dumber than that.

 

[Creative]

It’s like saying that fashion is not diverse because it doesn’t include short people. Short people, stop buying fashion because there are no short models and you are not represented. Please

They are private brands ruled by people who grew up in white contexts, their beauty ideal is white so it’s normal they choose more white people for their shows, for instance. I don’t get why a private brand should be thinking in representing everybody (just when it comes to color, because when it comes to shape or height, it doesn’t matter ).

If a designer is black, I get his ideal of beauty will be black and I would never even think: why is he not using a white a model? I don’t care, it’s his vision, if I like it fine, if I don’t, fine too.

Wanting to be represented is a sign of defeat imo.

 

[philophile]

It’s like saying that fashion is not diverse because it doesn’t include short people. Short people, stop buying fashion because there are no short models and you are not represented. Please

They are private brands ruled by people who grew up in white contexts, their beauty ideal is white so it’s normal they choose more white people for their shows, for instance. I don’t get why a private brand should be thinking in representing everybody (just when it comes to color, because when it comes to shape or height, it doesn’t matter ).

If a designer is black, I get his ideal of beauty will be black and I would never even think: why is he not using a white a model? I don’t care, it’s his vision, if I like it fine, if I don’t, fine too.

Wanting to be represented is a sign of defeat imo.

Representation in the past 5-6 years (before it was like if POC didn't exist) is changing things a lot and actually making people appreciate their own type of beauty. If you think only white people can look good, we have nothing else to discuss. You are essentially advocating for white supremacist culture, when there are minorities living in Western countries, when there are whole markets and economies in the whole world being dominated by the West. You are living in a bubble, because things are not like they were 40 years ago. It's not my job to widen your mind.

Also, I have never read anyone defending diversity stating that inclusion should be 50% POC and 50% white or even much less, but when fear speaks....

 

[Creative]

^ that couldn’t be any further from my POV though

Anyways, I don’t think people should have fashion as a “role model”. It will never be inclusive; first, because it’s for the rich. Second, because not all the body types are represented (and shouldn’t, imo). People with certain disabilities won’t be part of it either. Old people neither.

I just don’t get why people want to belong to everything… it’s not better to receive a proper education and to learn how to love yourself (I hate this sentence, but you get what I mean) than letting a private company tell you what’s good and bad? The problem is somewhere else when people want a private company to be a symbol of diversity and inclusion imo.

 

[Creative]

Out of curiosity I just checked which was the most important fashion week in Africa and it happens to be Lago’s.
I’ve been checking the shows and no white models at all. No Chinese.

It’s normal. The designers are black. They grew up surrounded by black people. Their ideal of beauty is probably black. Why should I tell them to introduce a white or Chinese person for the sake of diversity? It makes no sense at all.

A disabled person maybe wants to be represented in a show. Or a transgender. A 90 year old, a bald person, a blind one, a short one, a dwarf, a girl with no legs, a Down syndrome… The diversity discussion in private companies is completely absurd. Why black and not the rest?

 

[avonlea002]

But you can't be a multi billion brand with boutiques all over the world and act like a small private business with atelier in Paris and maybe one store. All these huge houses stopped having that privilege the moment they went global and started actively reaching customers from different continents and then taking part in social media circus.

 

[ecnerretneerg]

You can call me and my question stupid, but what’s your actual answer?

Both @blueorchid and @philophile eloquently debunked why that comment was really stupid and lacked any nuance. Besides, sports and rap (albeit predominately black) are largely merit based. Sports teams aren’t afraid to make a POC player as the face of a team, whereas the elitist fashion industry has a sinister history of not using POC models due to straight up racism… which is sad because the fashion industry relies heavily on countries outside of Europe.

Across all disciplines, and in life, the diversity/inclusion conversation is exhausting. I am very aware of how performative the fashion industry is with its initiatives, It’s not beneath me that there will be some misunderstanding between those with a european pov and those with a westernized pov. But, you talk about how “european” the industry is like it’s a good thing. Let’s not forget that a famous European designer, who sent faux locs and ndebele collars down the runway, was revealed to be a casual anti-Semite. Whether you like it or not, diversity/inclusion is necessary because it holds people accountable.

 

[ecnerretneerg]

Out of curiosity I just checked which was the most important fashion week in Africa and it happens to be Lago’s.
I’ve been checking the shows and no white models at all. No Chinese.

It’s normal. The designers are black. They grew up surrounded by black people. Their ideal of beauty is probably black. Why should I tell them to introduce a white or Chinese person for the sake of diversity? It makes no sense at all.

A disabled person maybe wants to be represented in a show. Or a transgender. A 90 year old, a bald person, a blind one, a short one, a dwarf, a girl with no legs, a Down syndrome… The diversity discussion in private companies is completely absurd. Why black and not the rest?

Because it would look idiotic as what you said…

 

[Creative]

Because it would look idiotic as what you said…

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Idk why. I didn’t say idiotic at all. Actually, it would be ok if the designer would geniunely like a white model. The thing is that in European brands, they cast black people just to not get cancelled. There’s a quota and to me that’s completely wrong.

Anyways, imagine a white person saying what you said about a black person in a European fashion show 🫣

 

[blueorchid]

if fashion is for white Europeans only, shouldn’t they have their factories in Europe only, too and only employ native Europeans (not immigrants or migrants)