Demna Gvasalia - Designer, Creative Director of Balenciaga

[Drusilla_]

^exactly, it's a matter of perception and like you said, Lacroix/Gigli/Ghesquiere always had that reputation for workmanship and being that bit elevated over other labels, and it was reflected in the prices (I would also put Alaïa in their company), plus there's been a renewed appreciation of even more commercial things like the Balenciaga City bag. Similarly, there's some stuff that earns that high price on the secondhand market because it was genuinely something that heralded an era shift/peak e.g. Tom Ford Gucci. But among the hottest labels on the secondhand market for the last 2-3 years/right now is Roberto Cavalli, a brand that 00s TFS thought of as being Eurotrash. Granted, the fabrics used on the label from that era can be flattering, but I'm still boggled by the prices some of that stuff is going for, same with stuff like Blumarine and Diesel (which really are the result of the trend cycle coming back around to their peak y2k style and new creative directors who are savvy enough to catch it and exploit it, rather than any of the older stuff actually being particularly well-thought-of back then). If someone had told me that some label from that era was going to be the new in-demand thing in the vintage world, I would not have predicted that it would be Cavalli of all labels! (Tom Ford, yes. Galliano, hell yes, McQueen, well his stuff has always been in demand on the secondhand circuit because he's another of the demi-couturiers of that generation and his clothes were always known to be exquisite and well cut...but Cavalli? Maybe I'm just too closed minded!)

I mean, I do see your point about Alber/Theyskens/Marc's 00s work being just that smidge too under the radar to really blow up among the tiktok generation but the latter especially surprises me because Marc by Marc Jacobs was SO popular back then! Hell even 00s Prada is still quite reasonably priced, and it was possibly the most influential label of the decade, in terms of moving the needle on trends and being the weathervane for where other designers would go, and also being the most in demand among consumers. A/W 2004, 2006, 2007 and S/S 2008 are still collections I would basically kill to have a piece of, particularly any of the ombre skirts/coats from 2007. Some of the obvious museum pieces are always high prices, like the lipstick print skirts and any of the James Jean prints, and I know Prada has fallen off a bit in the later 2010s, but I'm still surprised.

Balenciaga was a super buzzy brand under Demna and that was reflected in secondhand prices for everything from sneakers to the recent logo sh*t - if the scandal really has taken it out of the brand, I can see those prices cooling off a bit too, at least until their next move to get past it.

 

[yslforever]

Very witty of Betty. She remained a real diplomat during that period. I know Tom gifted her the suit from his first eponymous collection he shot her in for Vogue Paris.
Indeed very gracious of her to donate all those clothes. They were gifted to her but she was much more elegant than Deneuve in that aspect…
I got to say that I was confused at first when she auctioned her stuff because I though she would have done an arrangement with YSL and Gaultier. I was surprised to see some pieces on Resee.

I love Betty. She never worked, she enjoyed herself and survived an entire generation.

Talking about auctions, fashion houses are making it very hard nowadays for us simple mortals. Everybody is building their archives and it’s really insane to get some pieces…And Hollywood stylists and their new found love for Vintage don’t make things easier.

Betty has always been gracious and elegant. Vacarello loves her too. CD on the other hand not so much, she has always asked huge enveloppes of cash for anything, even from YSL then Saint Laurent now. I cannot imagine the insane amount she's asking to attend a LV Ghesquière show...

 

[Deleted member 7575]

Ya'll need to stay on topic.

 

[yslforever]

Ya'll need to stay on topic.

I don't see Demna nor Charbit lasting another 6 months. The sales are terrible (except in couture, at Christmas they got new orders from the last July show). The issue is that nobody in Kering knows what to do, my friends there told me it is a "baton merdeux" (no translation needed) that noone wants to touch, they all fear about their career. That possibly could buy Demna a few more months in position.

 

[SophiaVB]

Having worked at an unnamed brand during a similar PR crisis, the marketing machine has to go quiet until people forget about this but generally consumers are not particularly bright or have very long attention spans. If I didn't work in the industry, I doubt I'd have even heard of this other than it being mentioned on Kim K's IG story. The more markets you're exposed to, the less of an impact it actually has on sales. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a dip in US/France but APAC continues on selling at a similar rate. All it really takes is planning a smart "revamp" in a few months for everything to pick back up again. Demna has had a similar issue as Alessandro at Gucci for the last several seasons in that there has been too much excess merchandise everywhere causing brand dilution, so I don't really think it hurts to rethink direction anyways. All that being said, anecdotal comments from buyers or store managers are hardly indication that the brand is falling off a financial cliff. It would be pretty difficult for everything to go to zero overnight.

 

[LadyJunon]

Having worked at an unnamed brand during a similar PR crisis, the marketing machine has to go quiet until people forget about this but generally consumers are not particularly bright or have very long attention spans. If I didn't work in the industry, I doubt I'd have even heard of this other than it being mentioned on Kim K's IG story. The more markets you're exposed to, the less of an impact it actually has on sales. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a dip in US/France but APAC continues on selling at a similar rate. All it really takes is planning a smart "revamp" in a few months for everything to pick back up again. Demna has had a similar issue as Alessandro at Gucci for the last several seasons in that there has been too much excess merchandise everywhere causing brand dilution, so I don't really think it hurts to rethink direction anyways. All that being said, anecdotal comments from buyers or store managers are hardly indication that the brand is falling off a financial cliff. It would be pretty difficult for everything to go to zero overnight.

You're right. I don't think that Demna will leave Balenciaga because of one bad season. It normally takes around 3 or 4 for for executives to start searching for a replacement. Demna's future at Balenciaga will definitely depend on the sales of the Spring'23 collection and the reception towards the Fall'23 and Resort'24 show in March and May.

If those results are unsatisfactory, they'll probably urge Demna to take a different creative direction with the brand. If Demna fails to do that, then Kering will start shopping for a replacement (most likely another new cool designer who's on the rise).

 

[Steddycam91]

I’m shocked y’all think there’s even going to be a Fall 23 show. Sure, the controversy’s died down a little bit, but I don’t think any major editor or celebrity or model is going to want anything to do with this brand for awhile.

 

[Deleted member 7575]

I don't see Demna nor Charbit lasting another 6 months. The sales are terrible (except in couture, at Christmas they got new orders from the last July show). The issue is that nobody in Kering knows what to do, my friends there told me it is a "baton merdeux" (no translation needed) that noone wants to touch, they all fear about their career. That possibly could buy Demna a few more months in position.

I expect they'll give him until the March show.

 

[Deleted member 7575]

Having worked at an unnamed brand during a similar PR crisis, the marketing machine has to go quiet until people forget about this but generally consumers are not particularly bright or have very long attention spans. If I didn't work in the industry, I doubt I'd have even heard of this other than it being mentioned on Kim K's IG story. The more markets you're exposed to, the less of an impact it actually has on sales. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a dip in US/France but APAC continues on selling at a similar rate. All it really takes is planning a smart "revamp" in a few months for everything to pick back up again. Demna has had a similar issue as Alessandro at Gucci for the last several seasons in that there has been too much excess merchandise everywhere causing brand dilution, so I don't really think it hurts to rethink direction anyways. All that being said, anecdotal comments from buyers or store managers are hardly indication that the brand is falling off a financial cliff. It would be pretty difficult for everything to go to zero overnight.

All that being said, anecdotal comments from buyers or store managers are hardly indication that the brand is falling off a financial cliff. It would be pretty difficult for everything to go to zero overnight.

I have yet to hear, read or see anything that indicates otherwise.

What I heard from the buyer was not an anecdote but actual data. The numbers don't lie.

If you look at it as a statistic sample representing a bigger population, you can infer, with albeit low confidence, that the same drop in sales and shrinking buying budgets are happening elsewhere.

A friend who's visiting Japan reported vacant stores over there as well. Now that IS purely anecdotal. Interpret how you will.

But really, think about it: can you truly imagine anyone going out and buying Balenciaga in the last month? In the flurry of the holiday season, do you really think the brand was top of mind for shoppers? And it's safe to say that anyone who was interested in Balenciaga and wanted to buy it probably picked up on all the hullabalo. Kim Kardashian would have entered their newsfeed at some point . The algorithms on their phones and browsers would have aggregated the headlines at the very least.

Even if they didn't care, I don't think people were buying it. They might resume, but I think right now it's a wasteland.

Also, I don't really think this is like other PR disasters. The only two that I can think of that could even be remotely close are Prada and Gucci's racist moments, but even they are of different nature. And they most certainly had a different response which I think is more the problem here than the actual original gaff.

But to your point though I don't think it's the scandal alone that's the problem. It's probably a combination with brand fatigue. The brand has lost its luster and it's hard to get that back.

 

[khoinguyen666]

I was just in NYC. Louis Vuitton had a line in 10 degree weather, Chanel had a line in 10 degree weather, Balenciaga was completely empty...

The scandal has already blown up into the mainstream; I don't remember that with the Gucci or Prada blackface controversies

 

[LadyJunon]

I’m shocked y’all think there’s even going to be a Fall 23 show. Sure, the controversy’s died down a little bit, but I don’t think any major editor or celebrity or model is going to want anything to do with this brand for awhile.

Skipping the Fall'23 season is pretty much admitting defeat, which will make the incident look even worse in the eyes of outsiders.

But to your point though I don't think it's the scandal alone that's the problem. It's probably a combination with brand fatigue. The brand has lost its luster and it's hard to get that back.

They definitely could. Balenciaga did that 3 times in its 105-year history.

With OG Balenciaga, we have 1937 after Cristobal fled to France to relaunch his business away from the Spanish War. With Reboot Balenciaga, we have 1997 with Ghesquiére's appointment and 2015 with Demna's appointment.

Balenciaga could definitely rise again, but the house would need to be cleaned out of any remnants of Demna and his team.

 

[Steddycam91]

Skipping the Fall'23 season is pretty much admitting defeat, which will make the incident look even worse in the eyes of outsiders.

They've scrubbed their Instagram and turned off the ability for anyone to tag the brand account in their posts, the brand ambassadors and muses have all condemned the brand and/or fully distanced themselves from being associated, Business of Fashion rescinded an award for Demna, Vogue made no acknowledgement of the brand in an end-of-year retail sales article...

tenor

 

[fenty]

Balenciaga showcasing a collection for FW23 is like a double edged sword, as someone said if they dont show its them admitting defeat but also if they do show, who will attend? they might as well make it a presentation instead of a live show if they are apart of the calendar.

 

[Salvatore]

Here in Amsterdam, all of the luxury shops on the same street (Chanel, Dior, Louis Vuitton, Hermès, etc) were buzzing with shoppers and some even had queues despite the crap weather we experience. But Balenciaga … as many have stated, the workers were just standing around and there was not one shopper in there. I was surprised, but not shocked.

 

[SophiaVB]

But really, think about it: can you truly imagine anyone going out and buying Balenciaga in the last month?

yes lol

 

[KoV]

Anyone calling into question the anecdotes about lost sales, do you have a counter argument? Any anecdotal evidence of your own? Is there any indication this isn't a financial disaster?

 

[GoldenTribe]

Anyone calling into question the anecdotes about lost sales, do you have a counter argument? Any anecdotal evidence of your own? Is there any indication this isn't a financial disaster?

I will preface this by saying I have hated Demna's Balenciaga since day one, and I will be as overjoyed as anyone when his exit is confirmed; so I would not hesitate to accept this truly overblown scandal as a catalyst for the brand to get rid of him and hopefully move on to a new designer (someone more in line with Ghesquiere's rigorous futurism rather than the sloppy Soviet dad jeans and all-over logo monstrosities we have been getting from a brand that used to be completely above that sort of low-grade logo-wh*re BS) ....

With that out of the way, while I don't doubt for a moment that sales are (way) down, there are definitely people buying Balenciaga online (where you don't have to be "the one A-hole in the empty store" that everyone else is turning up their nose at) in not-inconsiderable quantities in the past couple of weeks. Just take a look through new arrivals at Ssense and Mr.Porter and you will see:

• an ugly coated-cotton DB blazer for $4000 with only one remaining because the rest sold out
• an ugly cliché sketch-embellished trucker jacket with only one remaining because the rest sold out
• an ugly leather blazer for $6000+ sold out at least one size in full price because there are only 2 left
• a truly hideous torn-hem jean shorts for $1100+ sold out in a couple sizes
• an ugly long-sleeve tee priced at $1110 sold out in the most popular sizes
• a sickeningly ugly "XXXL Balenciaga" hoodie for $1450 sold out in the small sizes
• an ugly all-over logo sweatshirt for $1700 (that nobody should have considered buying even when it was a new "design" years ago) is available in two colours, each sold out in at least one size
• more ugly $1000 jean shorts with only one size available
• an ugly $775 necklace that looks like something bought from a low-end pet store sold out in one of two sizes

There are probably more but it's upsetting looking at that much ugly crap all at once, even without thinking about how the nine items above cost more than most people's first car, so I had to stop.

I don't care about the reason, just #GetRidOfDemna

 

[MulletProof]

^ Thanks for that, you did some research when the request was for just another anecdote in the opposite direction (so my friend who has a friend who is pals with Demna..).

I agree with what you said, except I don't hate Demna's Balenciaga, I'm completely indifferent to Balenciaga as a company, never really been into the Wendy's and McDonald's of fashion..

I do wish people into fashion (as an interest or as a profession) would be more resistant to the ever so irresistible gossip/second-hand information and would value data, empirical evidence and reputable sources a bit more. It sounds like a minor, 'it's not that deep' issue but this lazy way of understanding and processing information and the eagerness to react to it and inform taste and expectations around it is one of the reasons fashion is so mediocre and a short-term source of entertainment these days. Schadenfreude is quicker to feed than the boring work of research and education and of course the exhausting months between your need for gossip and a sales report to come out. It's just a bit unfortunate that these immediate 'sensations' are about as much as the average fashion consumer/enthusiast can handle now, at all times. Fashion File would've never gone anywhere with an infantile audience..

 

[KoV]

^ I think I asked for a counter argument, anecdotal evidence, or any indication it's not a financial disaster. I was hardly shunning the idea of a researched response or of actual evidence. But since Balenciaga isn't going to be forthcoming with the numbers themselves and anyone who may have access likely wouldn't be blabbing on here or to the press, most of this IS just speculation. And cherry-picking. Short of a dramatic strategy change from Balenciaga or some kind of leak, we're not going to get the empirical evidence. Speaking of which....

I will preface this by saying I have hated Demna's Balenciaga since day one, and I will be as overjoyed as anyone when his exit is confirmed; so I would not hesitate to accept this truly overblown scandal as a catalyst for the brand to get rid of him and hopefully move on to a new designer (someone more in line with Ghesquiere's rigorous futurism rather than the sloppy Soviet dad jeans and all-over logo monstrosities we have been getting from a brand that used to be completely above that sort of low-grade logo-wh*re BS) ....

With that out of the way, while I don't doubt for a moment that sales are (way) down, there are definitely people buying Balenciaga online (where you don't have to be "the one A-hole in the empty store" that everyone else is turning up their nose at) in not-inconsiderable quantities in the past couple of weeks. Just take a look through new arrivals at Ssense and Mr.Porter and you will see:

• an ugly coated-cotton DB blazer for $4000 with only one remaining because the rest sold out
• an ugly cliché sketch-embellished trucker jacket with only one remaining because the rest sold out
• an ugly leather blazer for $6000+ sold out at least one size in full price because there are only 2 left
• a truly hideous torn-hem jean shorts for $1100+ sold out in a couple sizes
• an ugly long-sleeve tee priced at $1110 sold out in the most popular sizes
• a sickeningly ugly "XXXL Balenciaga" hoodie for $1450 sold out in the small sizes
• an ugly all-over logo sweatshirt for $1700 (that nobody should have considered buying even when it was a new "design" years ago) is available in two colours, each sold out in at least one size
• more ugly $1000 jean shorts with only one size available
• an ugly $775 necklace that looks like something bought from a low-end pet store sold out in one of two sizes

There are probably more but it's upsetting looking at that much ugly crap all at once, even without thinking about how the nine items above cost more than most people's first car, so I had to stop.

I don't care about the reason, just #GetRidOfDemna

I appreciate the thoughtful response and the links. I am not too familiar with ssence, but I followed each link. What I found curious is that with each item you listed where some of the sizes are sold out, every other size only has 1, 2, or 3 left in stock. With no exceptions. Leads me to think each item has a very limited stock to begin with.

Take THE most recently stocked Balenciaga item on the site as an example: https://www.ssense.com/en-ca/men/product/balenciaga/blue-fitted-jeans/11131611. One of the sizes is sold out, only 1 item remaining for each of the 8 sizes still in stock. What are the chances they had sizeable stock and *every* size is selling at the *exact* same rate? Low. I don't think this indicates they're flying off the shelves, I think that means ssense likely only carries a few (as little as 1 in each size for some products) to begin with. How much they stock in the first place is obviously a hugely important piece of information in this empirical evidence. When the items were stocked is also an important piece of the puzzle, as this controversy didn't really take off until just over a month ago.

With Mr Porter, they started stocking some of the items you listed months ago. The logo sweater was added to the site in spring. The denim shorts were added to the site back in August. The necklace, I have to admit, is indeed a new arrival (not sure if that means within the last month, though). The fact that one of the sizes of an item they listed in August is now sold out doesn't really indicate in any way that sales were unaffected by the controversy that took off in late November. I just went to Mr Porter myself. 282 Balenciaga items listed. I sorted by "new in" and looked at the 10 most recently listed products. Of the 10, only 1 size of 1 item is sold out, and there are no "low stock" or "only a couple left" type warnings on the others, which Mr Porter typically has. Don't feel like linking each item, but anyone can see for themselves if they're curious.

 

[GoldenTribe]

This is where nuance comes in.

Your original post: "Is there any indication this isn't a financial disaster?"

Your latest post: "The fact that one of the sizes of an item they listed in August is now sold out doesn't really indicate in any way that sales were unaffected by the controversy that took off in late November."

There is an enormous, gaping chasm of possibility between "nobody has bought a single item" and "sales have not been affected at all." If you read my previous post more carefully, I think you will come to realize that in no way, shape or form was I suggesting the latter.