Jil Sander Mens F/W 06.07 Milan

[AlexN]

I went to the post office this morning and looked at the 10-15 people in line. All of them had jackets that reminded me of this collection. If dropped shoulders and boxy cuts are fashionable, then practically everyone in America is already amazingly fashionable, and the GAP is a great store. :annoyed sarcastic smiley:

 

[Harryx]

Why go to extremes? You might hate the skinny silhouete but that doesnt mean that you have to go to the direct opposite!!! What is so charming and "elegant" to having clothes that you look like as if you are buying two sizes up?
Where is the freshness in imitating once again a past era of clothing lines without adding anything new?
And why should people older than 30 be doomed to wear boxy, unflattering clothes?

 

[Harryx]

All of you so quick to point out a new trend, the return of the 90's, are worse than those who have simply fallen for the Dior outfit. Because in your eagerness to spot "new trends" and not be a part of the "skinny" flock anymore, embrace absurdities such as the new collection from Raf which is not new at all nor innovative.

 

[Deleted member 7575]

i love the music in the show.

have you seen or heard the show? I've only read descriptions of what was played, it sounds interesting.

 

[nqth]

I remember when Jil Sander started her first men coll everybody criticized her for oversized greys, (just sth between CdG and Prada:-)

Talking about "boxy", "why should people older than 30 be doomed to wear" skinny clothes?

I think it's sth for everyone. And RS did the constructed oversized stuffs in a v.good way.

 

[Arturo21]

^I agree. At first I disliked it, but I admire this man, and I'm sure he did this well and put a lot of effort into it. I'm really warming up to the sweaters with the "strange" collars.

Fabrics must be very nice, too, from what I see in the pictures.

 

[Fade to Black]

I disagree with the notion that 'boxy' is necessarily 'unflattering.' It's about the way the jacket is cut...it doesn't look like it's '2 sizes too big', I think there is a very clear difference between something being actually 2 sizes too big and one being simply cut with a more boxy or draping form. And pardon me for being repetitive, but going back to my favorite designer Yohji again, I have a suit jacket and a shirt from him that could be mistaken to be 'too big' but upon closer inspection of details such as shoulder width and sleeve length that are proportionate to the body - it's evident that it is simply the way the jacket and shirt were shaped and that it still fits the body - but just a different proportion. I think it's time for a step forward, and even though I was skeptical to this at first, my eyes are warming up to this new proportion which I think is a refreshing direction.

 

[Bidwell]

Ooooh, the 90's are back! I can finally pull out my old Sander and spare myself the trip to the store. I knew it was an investment....

 

[tricotineacetat]

I agree with everyone saying that this very true to the Jil Sander heritage and customer, which I think would be most important above anything else.

On the contrary though, I cannot see what was worth reviving from the 1990ies, I think this was really a stagnant period of time in fashion, as well as in arts and music. As I already mentioned in the Burberry thread, I am open to new suggestions of silhouette and proportion, but these I don´t find convincing at all. Most of these fabrics look quite stiff and heavy to look suitable for anything that is a bit loosely built - It´s not flou that is going on here, it´s strict by the restraint and strong fabrics, yet not from the silhouette that he offered. The problem is that even though most of this would have to be regarded as utterly commercial, I don´t think this will be selling really well. Germany is a very big market for Jil Sander and many customers that are 40+ (and that´s a fairly major amount of customers for high fashion houses) are still wearing this... and probably never stopped doing it from the 1990ies.

It is appropriate to address an older customer base for the Jil Sander label and probably a statement to refuse going a very "young" direction as Hedi Slimane did for Dior Homme (who is addressing a wide audience of people that will never be able to afford any of his clothes), so naturally, it is a collection that would never, never work for somebody that is much younger, less adult built... For example, me beeing a fairly small size 44 and having a certain height (1,80m), I would end up looking as if I bought a cheap suit off the rack in a department store, rather cheap and wide fitted, my mom advising me to buy the bigger size up "so I will grow in it". Then again, beeing of a very small size, I don´t think I represent a wide audience of people that would be lucrative catering to and I understand that is much more profitable cutting for "medium" and "large" sizes (48,50,52,54).

 

[Ch..ch..aA]

have you seen or heard the show? I've only read descriptions of what was played, it sounds interesting.[/quote

you can watch a clip here:
mms://62.23.8.50/parismodes/wms/en/high/2001285/jilsander285_814_e.asf

(copy and paste the addresse on windows media player)
source parismodes

 

[cutxpaste]

Terrible. All the garments are the same, just in tan and black

 

[Deleted member 7575]

have you seen or heard the show? I've only read descriptions of what was played, it sounds interesting.[/quote

you can watch a clip here:
mms://62.23.8.50/parismodes/wms/en/high/2001285/jilsander285_814_e.asf

(copy and paste the addresse on windows media player)
source parismodes

hey thanks so much!!

 

[skeeterbe]

It's a bit of a shock at first but then that's what we've become to expect from Raf. I had the same reaction when I first saw his 'Riot Riot Riot' collection in 2001; it's not what I was used to after the skinny cuts he did before that, but it grew on me. You just can't expect him to keep on churning out the skinny or baggy styles we've become so used to, and which have penetrated the mainstream - it's time to move on.

Overall I think this collection is closer to the recent Raf mainline collections in it's aesthetic: less clear-cut statements ('skinny' or 'baggy' or 'school' or 'riot') but more nuanced and sophisticated - and thus less eye-catching / 'groundbreaking'. It's for Jil Sander after all - what did you expect: burning rubber tyres and [SIZE=-1]kaffiyeh's?[/SIZE] And I agree with some this is for an 'older' audience - funnily enough that corresponds to what Raf said in an interview last year where he said that the 'street boys' he used to dress and hang out with have now grown up and are asking about suits (and yes, I know you can then still wear a slim cut suit, but that's not the point).

Of course boxy suits are not new, but what is new in men's fashion these days? Isn't it all somehow recycled from, ooooh, the last few hundred years? The 'skinny' cut isn't that 'new' either.

I had to study the pics a couple of times but I now think it's a good collection; you can tell there's an expert at work in the overall shapes and look and the materials seem excellent. Maybe not what you'd expect from Raf but hey - it's Raf.

Finally - interesting to see the discussion here after the Kris Van Assche thread discussing his last show - I remember people there were muttering his cut was also 'ill fitting'. Maybe we are onto a trend guys!

 

[Marquischacha]

Here is a very good interview from men.style.com with Raf on his new collection for Jill Sander:

http://men.style.com/fashion/style_notes

From the interview it sounds like he was offered to take on either Helmut's or Jil's line.

 

[andrew]

Wow, my appreciation for both Raf & Jil and increased immensely after reading that interview. Many thanks.

 

[visconti]

It doesn't look like there's been much action in this thread since the show in Milan, but earlier this week I was finally able to visit one of the stores and try on the majority of the collection. As many may suspect, the genius is in the details and many of those are not immediately apparent from the mediocre quality shots available online. It's difficult to organize all of the information, so this post will may be a bit rambly. Hopefully this information will help those of you who haven't had access to the collection appreciate it. Even if you've seen a few pieces in Barney's or another department store, you'll be missing out on a lot of various types of fabric.

First off, almost all of the blazers and outerwear are extremely heavy. Unfortunately, I can't remember all of the specific names for the techniques, but a lot of the pieces are made of Japanese wools. Some suits and jackets use a traditional form that's rough hewn- almost thickly woven burlap. This works well because the jackets are able to hold their shape away from the body. This keeps them from looking baggy or unfitted. While some may not like the silhoutte, if you were to see someone wearing coats in real life, it would be clear that the effect was intentional.

A number of the shorter, blazer type jackets are actually intended to be used as outerwear. For example, the first jacket in the collection that has the high, single visible button. It's actually a 3 button jacket, but the other two are hidden by the placard. Other jackets are actually padded. You wouldn't know this unless you were able to touch them. Again, the thin layer (of down, I think), helps the jackets hold their shape even when they stand away from the body.

If you were concerned about the repetition and limited color selection, there are other options in the store. There were a number of pieces in heather grey and most interestingly, what they considered an inky blue. It looks black in certain lights, but there's some polyester or similar synthetic woven in, so that it looks very distinctive in the light. I know this fabric was available for a suit, and is possible available for outerwear. There are also a few fall colored knits that weren't shown on the runway- a burnt orange and autumn yellow were most visible. There's also a striking electric blue used for some tees and ties. This color seems to be one of the most popular, as it was available early in the season when I was abroad and one of the employees had the blue tie that I picked up in Stockholm.

As far as the knitwear goes, it's easily one of the highlights. It's available in your standard wool to cashmere blends, but a number of the more intriguing items are in polypropylene (a material used to make wet suits and such). I got one of the very tightly woven black knits over the Summer, but I was surprised to see some other variations at the store. The less tightly woven pieces have a softer, squishier feel and also fit slightly less tightly. There was another sort of knit that was very dry. I'm not sure what it was made of. The buttonless cardigan is one of the more popular items and I believe is made of a wool/cashmere blend. It's another piece that must be seen up close because the stiches (or lack-thereof) are so sleek.

Even items such as the following jacket, which may look dull at a glance, are extremely impresive in person. If you look closely at the cuffs and the waistline, you can see some shadowing. This is because the jacket is actually two seperate layers. Again, the outer layer is designed to stand away from the body, giving it a very unique look. I don't know enough about such techniques to explain it, but it does hold this shape in motion and pops back into shape after being pressed down.

I'm unsure if it was shown on the runway, but there was another exceptional overcoat that is completely covered with tiny Xs and other little stitches. It's very subtle, but the detail is remarkable.

The season's shoes are done by Church's and are handmade with a slightly elongated, round toe.

Last, but not least, I think I ended up getting the coat with the most intriguing fabric of the season. It's a cotton/polyester blend (to get the shine). As one of my friends pointed out, in the light, it looks almost like it's made of gun metal. It's light enough to be worn in Spring and Fall, but loose enough that you can wear a sweater or blazer underneath during the winter. I uploaded my picture in the shopaholics thread, but it's worth reposting here so that you can see the detail. It still doesn't do it justice, but imagine all of the runway jackets looking this much more interesting than in the standard online shots and you'll have some idea of how impressive the collection really is.

I didn't spend much time with the women's line, so I'll add a few comments in this thread. It's not quite as forward with the fabrics. They don't have as much in pure synthetics like the polypropylene, but there are some exclusive techniques. Most impressive are the coats that are covered with a dusting of copper and the reversible leather/down jackets. They're leather on one side and synthetic on the other. Also, most of the shoes and bags seen on the runway are also available in a silvery anthracite. It's really stunning to see.

You will want to be careful with the sizing if you're picking up pieces outside of the boutique. Some jackets fit true to size, but others may require you to go down up to two sizes to get you typical fit. It's not such an issue right now, but could lead to a lot of returns when these items hit places like yoox.

Hopefully this post will make the collection easier to appreciate (or, in my case, to love). I don't expect it'll appeal to everyone, but after seeing it for myself, I'm really ready to trust Raf as he develops the line.

Photos: style.com and my own

 

[tott]

^ Thanks for your personal review!

I appreciate that Jil Sander still appears to be high quality, subtle and about materials/construction, that was always what made the brand special...

 

[Zazie]

Oh coolness...it's gorgeous fabric technology there, and it would look so wrong with a skinny cut or with a lot of design detail. Jil Sander's minimalism is about amplifying one feature/concept (the cut, the colour, the fabric, the detailed construction, etc.) to deafening proportion and purity while curbing others. Along with the Japanese designers, Costume Nationals and Jil Sanders are the only pieces in my wardrobe I'd never discard, unlike say, Marc Jacobs. They cannot be mistaken for anything else. But why oh why the men's fabrics are not used for the women's? I'm disappointed that the men's collection is much more interesting, and the women's are so severe. Raf is basically a menswear designer I guess.

 

[visconti]

Thanks for bumping the thread. I forgot to post a few more detail shots. They were included in the shopoholic thread, but that's a fairly fast paced thread, so it's easy to miss lots of great pieces. It was much easier to get clear pictures at home after the alterations.

First is a suit that I got during the recent sale season. I haven't had a chance to take a picture of it since having the alterations completed, but it fits more or less like the picture with the model. Although I was displeased at the time, the comments from the tailor (it was shipped to me + sale alterations aren't complimentary, so I went locally) echoed a number of the negative opinions from this thread. He complained that the jacket was a terrible "off the rack" fit. Straight from Eisenhower's closet- because of the narrow lapels, I believe. He failed to notice even though the jacket is broader shouldered than the stuff I usually take to him, the effect is clearly intentional. The sides hold their shape slightly away from my body and if I stood with my arms up, you'd be able to see a perfectly straight line that runs from underneath the arms and matches the seam on the side of the pants. I think the balance between the slightly larger jacket and the super slim pants (17.5 cm. Take that Hedi ) makes for a striking, but practical figure.

You'll notice that the material looks bluer in the detail shots. I may have mentioned it in the October post, but this is the inky blue that looks almost black from certain angles. This suit was produced in lieu of a tuxedo/evening wear. It's designed to be light enough (color wise) to be practical for the court room during the day, but also suitable for a black tie sort of event. The fabrication is extremely heavy. It's about 3/4 nylon and then wool, so it's not wearable during the summer, but that's no matter. I think it'll carry forward from season to seaon very nicely.

There's also a detail of a tie that we found to pair with the suit. Again, it looks completely solid from a distance, but the white dots pick up other colors, so that it varies from a blue to a grey.

Finally, there's a shot of the finished coat and a much better detail view. It's black cotton with the polyester dots woven throughout. Again, from a distance it looks like a solid color, but upon closer inspection it reveals itself to be much more. It zips and there are snaps. Then there are nice buttons for the collar. And yes, it does manage to stand up perfectly at all times. Not too tight either. I think the shape is just about perfect too. I was only wearing a tee or other light shirt at the time and you can see that it doesn't look ill-fitted. The beauty is that I can add a blazer/suit and it will look practically unchanged.

Again, I hope seeing some of these shots helps everyone appreciate this collection. It's truly about detail and fabrication. Those sorts of things can't possibly be entirely realized through the low quality style.com shots. I think the beauty of the pieces transcends people's knowledge of design/fashion or lackthereof. One of the major points that draws me to Sander is the number of unsolicited compliments I've gotten while running errands or attending various events. It must be ten times higher than any other line. People may not know how to express it, but they are recognizing the cut or the fabric and not some silly monogram. I think that's one of the highest compliments a designer can receive. Going along with what Zazie said, I constantly consider selling things I've bought from other lines to buy more Jil. It's never been the other way around. I don't see that trend reversing itself.

I'm too tired now, but I'm going to post in the S/S thread after I get some sleep. I'm very fortunate to have gotten to see some of the pieces from the first shipment, so I hope I can further someone's appreciation of that collection as well.

On a slightly different topic, I wish people who buy other lines would share some of their experiences with the collections after they reach stores. It seems like many of these threads are a flurry of discussion in Jan or June and then nothing. It would be intriguing to see some of the hidden details from collections that I (and most of us) will never get to handle. Somebody out there has to be buying this stuff...

P.S. Please excuse my faux wood finished basement. I'm not responsible and as soon as I have the ablity it'll be redone to suit my taste. Either that or I'll move and start from scratch.

photos- mine and style.com

 

[John W]

Must admit that the collection looks much better close up than in the pictures and I did succomb to one of the jackets. I felt the collection was very refreshing and the cut was a style that is both practical and forgiving to people who want to wear fashion but don't look like a stick insect. I think that the whole issue around skinny fit versus box style is an interesting one and I think that for example the best work Japanese designers such as Yohji and Comme did was to challenge fitted proportions to create something different. Well done Raf !