The Vegetarian & Vegan Thread

[northernsky]

Welcome

If you say that you hope you don't go back into eating meat - is it because you miss something, or do you have cravings? Or for other reasons? (depending on where you live and your eating habits I imagine it can be more difficult if one has to eat out a lot)

By snacks do you mean things to eat inbetween meals, or things that are easy to prepare and don't take to long, like fingerfood?

There are fruits and nuts for one...

And, well, I like muffins

On the heartier side - hearty muffins! Ok, just kidding, there's more. Wraps - pita, lavash, tortilla &c. filled with salads, beans (black beans, chick peas &c.), sprouts if you like them, with hummous or baba ganoush. Or fallafels. Taboulé is good, too. You can make a lots of it, and eat it the next couple of days, if you haven't too much time on your hands and eats ideal to take with you to work, too. Oven-roasted vegetables. Stuffed peppers, tomatoes or mushrooms. Veggie burgers are quite easy to make, black bean burgers for example. Bruschetta is great, too. Stuffed grape leaves. Samosas are a good snack, I think, or just fill puff paste with whatever you want (spinach, mushrooms, ground brazil nuts - whatever, or silk tofu and apples if you're looking for something sweet) put them in the oven, ready.

Oh, there are so many good vegetarian and vegan cookbooks out there, and foodblogs too, maybe you should just browse through a few of them and see what makes your mouth water the most

 

[Ryan Weld]

I don't know if this has been brought up before but I have a serious question for the vegans.

Hardcore vegans don't consume/use animal products like meat, dairy, leather etc. But do they also not use petroleum based products? because crude oil is essentially dead dinosaurs and dinosaurs are animals yes? So if you are a true vegan then you basically can't use/consume anything because there are petroleum based products in nearly everything eg. pharmaceuticals, fuel, textiles, cosmetics, fertilizer...

Thoughts?

 

[northernsky]

I never thought about dinosaurs, actually. Does it sound mean when I say it's too late for them anyways?

Okay, seriously: Is petroleum the same as paraffines? I tried to look it up but I'm not sure. Those I try to avoid in cosmetics anyways. Of course I still take the bus, for example.

I may get some flack for this (pragmatism isn't popular around vegans) but veganism is always compromising*, because you have to balance it out. If there is a good animal-free alternative I'll take it, if not, well. For example there is no farm around that doesn't use animal derived fertilizers. Of course I still buy vegetables, although I know indirectly this supports meat factories too (as will probably every buy I do in the end) but I'm still hoping that if I buy the least amount of 'animal products' possible there there will be less 'meat production' [sic] in the future, there won't be this incredible amount of byproducts that just has to be used, because "hey it's free we would be bad business men if we didn't make use of the skin and the carcass and the excrements too" (they say, the only thing left of the cow is the moo)

I try very hard to make veganism not about my personal purity again, because then it's bound to drive you crazy (or which in my case frightens me even more: make you an insufferable holier-than-thou kind of prig)

 

[Ryan Weld]

^I think paraffin is a byproduct of the petroleum refining process.

Thank you for your answer, but I think that saying it's too late for the dinosaurs is a bit of a cop out. I look forward to what other people have to say.

 

[ilaughead]

I don't know if this has been brought up before but I have a serious question for the vegans.

Hardcore vegans don't consume/use animal products like meat, dairy, leather etc. But do they also not use petroleum based products? because crude oil is essentially dead dinosaurs and dinosaurs are animals yes? So if you are a true vegan then you basically can't use/consume anything because there are petroleum based products in nearly everything eg. pharmaceuticals, fuel, textiles, cosmetics, fertilizer...

Thoughts?

No.

But yes, by your definition a "true vegan" (or even a "true vegetarian") would not be able to exist in this world period. (Do you really believe that vegans would never even sit on a leather chair?) There is no way to do it completely 100%, but veganism is about compromising, as northernsky said. Saying that it's too late for the dinosaurs is not a cop out. At all. If we look at it from the ethical standpoint, which would be the only one to look in this case, what is inherently wrong with using the remains of an organism that has been long, long dead? It died of natural causes, we can pretty safely presume. And unless we believe in creationism, people probably did not kill all of the dinosaurs. Using petroleum products does not cause any harm to the animals that make up the product. (It's actually the reverse, causing harm only to things still living through pollution and stuff.)

But anyway, I don't think you get it. Biologically, yes, a "true vegan" would live his entire life without consuming or using any animal or animal-based products. However, there is no reason to be a "true vegan" in your words because sometimes, like in the case of petroleum, there is no harm present in its manufacture whatsoever.

 

[Ryan Weld]

^Okay, that's a pretty good answer.
What is the vegan stance on the use of leather goods? It's my understanding that that tanneries obtain hides from animals that have died of natural causes or from abattoirs where the animal was killed for it's meat. I don't think cows and sheep are raised specifically for their skin. So ethically the use of leather should be okay with vegans because as you said there's nothing wrong with using the remains of an animal that's already dead.
So my follow up question is: What's the deal with vegans and leather goods?

 

[Ryan Weld]

More specifically the use of leather for clothing and bags etc

 

[cestmagique]

Is there really a 'vegan consensus' on these things? (Except for in the dinosaur case, in which 99% of vegans would agree with ilaughead's rational-person response.) Veganism is a personal choice and as others have said, it's not possible to be completely vegan in every aspect of your life. Individuals can make up their own minds about petrol products and leather; there is no vegan standard or a 'you're not really a vegan if you still do this, because of this cough-cough logic'.

Anyway Ryan, I think you're making some twisted arguments. For instance, this:

"So ethically the use of leather should be okay with vegans because as you said there's nothing wrong with using the remains of an animal that's already dead."

... makes no sense. Yeah it would be bad for an animal to be killed and for most of it to be wasted-- no vegan wants that. But whoever killed the animal for meat is going to profit from the sale of the animal's hide, and that profit will encourage business and the death of more animals. Obviously vegans are opposed to that, wouldn't you say?

 

[northernsky]

The animal is not already dead, it is killed for its skin. The countervalue? of a cow (and the reason it's killed) is what you can get out of it - meat, leather, gelatine, glue, dung, whathaveyou) The meat industry doesn't make a bonus by selling the skin, everything is exactly calculated, so if they sell less of the animal's skin because people buy less leather products, they lose money.

 

[northernsky]

Is there really a 'vegan consensus' on these things?

The general consensus is "My vegan is better than yours"

 

[ilaughead]

^Okay, that's a pretty good answer.
What is the vegan stance on the use of leather goods? It's my understanding that that tanneries obtain hides from animals that have died of natural causes or from abattoirs where the animal was killed for it's meat. I don't think cows and sheep are raised specifically for their skin. So ethically the use of leather should be okay with vegans because as you said there's nothing wrong with using the remains of an animal that's already dead.
So my follow up question is: What's the deal with vegans and leather goods?

The animal is not "already dead," there's a financial incentive for the farmer to killing a cow not only for its meat, but also for its skin. Therefore, taking its leather is at least partially the reason for why the cow was killed.

there's nothing wrong with using the remains of an animal that's already dead.

This part I do agree with. IF humans didn't cause any suffering (or "slavery" as more militant animal rights activists would put it.) to the animal during its life. Examples are very few though, because it's not like that many people just go out and find dead animals to eat usually. (Though I do have a very eccentric relative I've met who does just that. It's not common, though, I'm sure.)

But anyway, leather is wrong, in my opinion. I do understand, however, that it is an extremely important material in fashion (along with silk, wool, fur, etc.) but that doesn't make it right. As for myself, while I would never buy animal-derived clothing, I don't make a point of criticizing its use in designers' work, because aesthetically, it makes no difference to me. (As in, Karl's done some great work with fur at Fendi, while I still dislike most all of Stella's cruelty-free clothing.)

But most importantly, your arguments would work best for vegetarians, because the life and death are their main concerns. The fact that an animal was owned and used by a human at all would be an additional concern from a vegan.

That got long. Edit: and it looks like others got here first!

 

[fashionista-ta]

Just a reminder that this is not the let's wind up the vegans and vegetarians thread The primary purpose of this thread is to discuss the practicalities of the vegan and vegetarian lifestyles.

 

[Ryan Weld]

I apologise to anyone who was offended by my posts, I will leave this thread now.

 

[northernsky]

Why, no worries!

I had a friend stay with me for a few days, and I didn't know she wasn't aware I would only have vegan stuff around the house. We cooked a lot (I had to try out some recipes out of my new cookbooks ) and she only realised it on the third or fourth day of her stay when she wanted to make pancakes and was looking for the eggs.

I always think it's a good sign if the first thing about your cooking is not that it's vegan but that it's yummy.

Btw. I also recommend The Voluptuous Vegan which is great because it plans out little menus with instructions on what to prepare in advance and in which order to prepare the different dishes - a thing I always have problems with when making a three-course-menu.

 

[ediewho]

I found a fantastic "not tasted in animals" body lotion with vitamine E that is great so far... Although im sure i will keep on trying new ones... i asked on this forum and i got really curiosity for some options people suggested me... but my mother got one of these and i was like "did you let me try it that one?" so she get me one (it's from RNB laboratories made in Spain).

 

[foreverandnone]

Man, I am the only person I know who makes the connection between the burger and the cow.
It makes me sick to even smell meat.
Ive progressively started going into vegan territory although I doubt I will truly be able to commit 100%.

Question: if you bought leather goods before you were vegan, do you still wear them or do they sit out?

 

[ilaughead]

^I still wear the leather/wool stuff I had from before. I follow someone else's example earlier in the thread and consider them 'grandfathered' in. It doesn't hurt anything to keep them, after all.

 

[oiselet]

foreverandnone: If you feel weird about wearing them you could always give them away, I think it's a waste to toss/not use animal products when you've already bought 'em.

 

[foreverandnone]

I dont own much leather anyway. I have doc martens.
The smell of leather grosses me out to be honest..it smells like manure and you can't even get it wet...

 

[winterlove]

I have been a vegetarian now for about 6 years, and I'm loving it!
I could never go vegan though, but I admire people who go to tose lengths.

And I agree with foreverandnone, the smell of meat makes me sick!