The New Gothic / Neogoth

[ElectricAlyce]

I agree. Goth or neo-goth means different things to different people. Its aesthetic boundaries are not as defined as punk or grunge, and therefore it lends itself to many interpretations and hybridations. Goth has always contained a mishmash of influences, and if you look at just the subculture, it even did so in the early Batcave years. (The Batcave club is considered by some to be the "birthplace" of the gothic subculture.)

You can see all these different styles in the Catherine Holstein collection.

I love all the "normal" goths and post-punks poging around and then Johnny sl*t in the middle, looking... kinda out of place really.

And I'm from a goth background, and heh, I'm kinda suprised that the "not true goth"-discussion even trinkle into a fashion forum. The term goth/neogoth in fashion is about inspiration, not from walking around in black, fishnet, anhks and listening to bauhaus.

 

[GasolineRainbow]

The dude from Specimen? I didn't realize that was him!

I'm from a goth background too, in fact I still happily identify myself as a goth. Though you may not recognize it by looking at me, including back in the day when I was more heavily involved with the scene. The same goes for a lot of people I know in that circle. The "true goth" debate rages on, and I agree with you that it's much more than only wearing black and listening to bands in the goth/industrial section of a record store.

Hehe, for those of you who are scratching their heads and wondering where fashion fits into all this, here is a colorful example. Doe Deere is a musician/makeup artist/alternative model, who has said in interviews that she primarily defines herself as a goth.

popculturemadness.com

chicisimo.com

chicisimo.com

kaboodle.com

chicisimo.com

 

[Gincat]

She's really beautiful, love her hair.

 

[gius]

The dude from Specimen? I didn't realize that was him!

I'm from a goth background too, in fact I still happily identify myself as a goth. Though you may not recognize it by looking at me, including back in the day when I was more heavily involved with the scene. The same goes for a lot of people I know in that circle. The "true goth" debate rages on, and I agree with you that it's much more than only wearing black and listening to bands in the goth/industrial section of a record store.

i guess i could be goth too then..
though i would say my inspiration doesn't come from any thing that's kind of dark or sinister..

the woman you posted i think a few of those could be goth in terms of style.
#1,#3 and the last picture
there is a japanese label that sell clothes that could fit all these looks.. sort of child-like but also can be worn who is into goth.. and a person who is also an anglophile, who likes tea shortbread and plaid ^^

 

[GasolineRainbow]

Yes, she is very Gothic-Lolita-esque. But my point was to show you can wear black, or color, or just jeans and a tshirt like the kids at the Batcave, and still consider yourself a goth. It's a totally subjective, personal term. That's part of what makes it so fascinating.

Sorry to go on and on about this. I've mentioned it before in the "Personal Style etc." thread (p. 49, #729), hope it's ok to post it here. After this, I promise to stop annoying you and just post pretty pictures

Goth is an extremely diverse subculture that is based on loosely shared aesthetics rather than a political/social/philosophical ideology (unlike punk, for example). As such, "goth" means completely different things to different people. Some goths happily wear all colors of the rainbow and listen to the Spice Girls. The media tends to grab onto the most extreme (and often negative) examples. No one has the right to label you as a goth. You are a goth ONLY if you identify yourself as one, no matter what colors you wear or what music you listen to, and especially no matter what anyone calls you.

 

[gius]

no problem, i see what you mean..
from looking through the whole thread though it seems to be what the focus on is the direction it is taking in fashion.. how the designers are using it.. like there really is a bit of an inspiration in something that can be dark or sinister.. frightening and also melancholy..and to see the beauty in that

in my art history class my teacher used a really good word "sublime"
"impressing the mind with a sense of grandeur and power"
inspiring awe,..

we were looking at a picture of someone looking out to sea at night. the ocean was black, waves crashing.. very dangerous..with his feet so close to the cliff, but at the same time beautiful, the moon reflecting off of the waves in the distance

The term goth/neogoth in fashion is about inspiration, not from walking around in black, fishnet, anhks and listening to bauhaus.

so this one here with the T-shirt really turns me off haha
but everything else can give off a similar feeling of the sublime

and it makes sense for a lot of designers here to find inspiration in victorian times
there is that kind of mood in the clothes..

 

[gius]

Editorial - Conte d'hiver
Magazine - Vogue Paris October 2006
Photographer - Mark Segal
Model - Marcelina Sowa & Suzanne Diaz

fotodecadent-livejournal
#441

 

[GasolineRainbow]

^Beautiful editorial. Gius, I think you nailed it by saying that it's looking for beauty, inspiration, even humor, in anything typically branded as dark, and therefore too intense or scary or depressing. The word "sublime" is just perfect, thank you!

 

[fashionista-ta]

wow what a huge thread..
so many different ideas..
i have worn dark colours for several years and am starting to get sick of it.. i need more air.. so it's nice to see some ecru and even powder slate blue in this thread

anyone have more sources for cameos?
etsy.com sees to have quite a lot,
even separates pieces you can put together to make your own kind of necklace

Have you already seen the Belgian ones I posted awhile back?

 

[gius]

Belgian cameos?
or clothes...

i like this old post of yours here, #728
nice colours and shapes..
it's a look i'm trying to create, something more simple

i'm finding it a little difficult since a lot of gothic inspiration seems to come through a lot of decoration. even this and this are too much decor for me


p.s. you're welcome, g~r ;-)

 

[fashionista-ta]

^ So old I'd forgotten it Very Jane Eyre.

I meant the cameos from the Belgian vintage jewelers Adin? You might also check eBay ... or anyplace locally with antique jewelry. Often antiques shows will have a jewelry booth ...

 

[gius]

quite expensive there, but i'll keep looking. there are some really nice pieces, thanks ^^
yes jane eyre! i also liked those pictures you posted of that and the mary poppins type of woman but in blue-grey.
i think in that first post i put a link to, the key was also in the hairstyle of the model, not so much the detail in the clothes.

 

[gius]

mariemaud.canalblog.com

 

[ElectricAlyce]

no problem, i see what you mean..
from looking through the whole thread though it seems to be what the focus on is the direction it is taking in fashion.. how the designers are using it.. like there really is a bit of an inspiration in something that can be dark or sinister.. frightening and also melancholy..and to see the beauty in that

It's interesting though, because there are several designers who draw heavily on gothic influences (McQueen comes to mind). This can more easily be drawn towards the original term "gothic" - architectual and litterature (and moody). It's fun to draw the lines though, between the different branches of gothic.
1)The original gothic, the architecture, the litterature etc.
2)The goth subculture, gothrock, x-tra-x/tripp/cyberdog fashion.
3)Fashion cotoure inspired by gothic influences. McQueen, Owens etc.
4)Goth-inspired style, which can draw inspiration from any of the above three.

 

[gius]

i'm not really sure what #2 would be there^. i find it's almost close to maybe S&M type of costume (there are groups of people that do that in my city or at least go to parties dressed like that).. there is a use of tight leather, belt straps, spikes, ..often black or black mixed w/ red. reminds me of Madonna's 90s days, in the music video "erotica" or Michelle Pfeiffer as catwoman.
to myself, i consider it 'punk' but since there is a lot of black, many people say goth. i'm not really familiar with this side of goth, i'm more around the people who might be in #1 from your list

studying art history, the characteristic of gothic architecture is a lot of adornment and very vertical lines. it was this idea that the tall lines bring you closer to heaven and adornment might have been a form of piety or cherishing a sacred object by decorating it
and this plays easily in clothes, like high collars and jet beads, long silhouettes (like Jil Sander or Givenchy) i wonder if there would be other details...

does anyone have recommendations on literature?
besides Edgar Allan Poe...
i've read some of his work but it seems to go on and on. it's not my style...
i think i would like to try Virginia Woolf. i think Sylvia Plath was another?
i would love to raed something terrifying but interesting.

 

[Gincat]

^The Monk by Matthew Lewis. The quintessential gothic novel.
Maybe the poetry of Charles Baudelaire? He was a bit depraved and a lot of his poetry has a sense of manic passion, lust, underlying fear, obsession..., I want to describe him as a dark romantic.

 

[fashionista-ta]

^ They say that women with big hair are closer to God, but I don't think that's Gothic

There's the whole genre of Gothic novels from the Regency period ... Northanger Abbey is Jane Austen's 'Gothic' novel (it's tongue in cheek). There was a famous author of them that she mentions in the book--Mrs someone, seems like it begins with an R I don't know that Gothic novels were meant to be really frightening though ... they were meant to be read by women wearing corsets who could hardly breathe Jane Eyre is great, you could try anything by the Bronte sisters. Anything really terrifying I don't read ...

 

[gius]

thank you guys, i will try to look for these

i guess i might be mixing gothic up with "romantic"..

in romanticism there is violence, terror and the sublime, as i wrote earlier. a beauty in danger, the dark/sad, the unknown
and isn't edgar allan poe from the same period as romanticism too.. i believe it is around 19th century and earlier or later

gothic was a revival of the middle ages..
in art, you have the messed up perspective. trees in the distance which are the same size as people in the foreground (in the renaissance they realise trees should be smaller because it is far away)
the other thing was sharp angles and also vertical lines
and also use of drapery, but not in such a supple way as in the renaissance. more angular and crisp

i always thought gothic could be romantic inspiration
since my teacher was telling us people would also romanticise the middle ages,
writing about castles which have secret passages, treks to faraway unknown lands, eating strange food, and other sort of terrifying things
the castles with secret passages which didn't actually exist. they were "romanticised"--it was a fantasy

just like in fashion we are sometimes led to believe paris is the centre of fashion and everybody living there is the utmost sophisticated and chic haha

 

[Gincat]

thank you guys, i will try to look for these

i guess i might be mixing gothic up with "romantic"..

in romanticism there is violence, terror and the sublime, as i wrote earlier. a beauty in danger, the dark/sad, the unknown
and isn't edgar allan poe from the same period as romanticism too.. i believe it is around 19th century and earlier or later

gothic was a revival of the middle ages..
in art, you have the messed up perspective. trees in the distance which are the same size as people in the foreground (in the renaissance they realise trees should be smaller because it is far away)
the other thing was sharp angles and also vertical lines
and also use of drapery, but not in such a supple way as in the renaissance. more angular and crisp

i always thought gothic could be romantic inspiration
since my teacher was telling us people would also romanticise the middle ages,
writing about castles which have secret passages, treks to faraway unknown lands, eating strange food, and other sort of terrifying things
the castles with secret passages which didn't actually exist. they were "romanticised"--it was a fantasy

just like in fashion we are sometimes led to believe paris is the centre of fashion and everybody living there is the utmost sophisticated and chic haha

I'm not sure that you are actually confusing gothic and romanticism. The gothic novel is known for it's use of violence, terror and the sublime. (The Monk was written in the 1790's, by the way) I've always viewed the gothic and romantic aesthetic as coming from the the same thread. (I could be very wrong about this though)

The thing that stands out to me about them is that they both deal with modern anxieties through the use of the supernatural (whether it be through actual ghosts, or figments of an increasingly mad or heightened mind), there are dark looming forces, as well inexplicable evil in people. Yet there is almost always a sensitive soul who is coping or suffering these things. It is through that character which I find the beauty, horror, sublime, etc. (I hope my disjointed thoughts and rambles made sense)

 

[from: sophia]

I was trying to explain that goth did not originate in hot topics but in the late 70s and early 80s and that fashion gothic was different and that gothic art and literature were an entirely different category.