The New Gothic / Neogoth

[gius]

i would be interested to see it, the late 70s gothic^

and i agree gothic art and lit are a different category
but i mean that is the (or one of) the source for inspiration for gothic fashion

I'm not sure that you are actually confusing gothic and romanticism. The gothic novel is known for it's use of violence, terror and the sublime. (The Monk was written in the 1790's, by the way) I've always viewed the gothic and romantic aesthetic as coming from the the same thread. (I could be very wrong about this though)

The thing that stands out to me about them is that they both deal with modern anxieties through the use of the supernatural (whether it be through actual ghosts, or figments of an increasingly mad or heightened mind), there are dark looming forces, as well inexplicable evil in people. Yet there is almost always a sensitive soul who is coping or suffering these things. It is through that character which I find the beauty, horror, sublime, etc. (I hope my disjointed thoughts and rambles made sense)

i see what you're saying
and after doing some reading, i got confused a bit earlier...
gothic IS the middle ages.
romanticism (1700+) was a revival of gothic.
so they are connected!

myself as well i am really interested in that "character" like you mention

some years ago I was reading Sense & Sensibility by Jane Austen
i hope someone here knows..
they are about two sisters, one is Mary-Anne and she almost gives herself away to emotions and fancy. She's very emotional. and her sister, Eleanor, is the extreme opposite, very rational to the point she might lose a possible lover because she's sort of grown 'cold'
i guess i did an essay on this
because i remember researching also about the current time period--i think it was the Victorians (i know at least 1700-1900). they were talking about a movement called the Enlightenment, which is the 'age of reason', a metaphor for Eleanor. i believe it was connected to ancient times, the Romans.. or Greeks..so that became in itself another "revival." (Later on the ancient times are revived again by the Americans.. so you see for example the White House looks quite ancient greek with the white columns, there are marble statues of the presidents and you have the eagle in a lot of the insignia)

i think romanticism was the reaction towards this. it happened afterwards. was the opposite. it was about feeling. it was about things you couldn't control.. Reminds me of William Turner's many paintings of natural storms where you can hardly see a thing. I think there was a name for this "age" just like there was the age of enlightenment but i forget what it was...

now i don't know if gothic fashion is connected so far into this.. about romanticism.. but it does have a bit of a connection. often i feel it's mostly about the dark, the victorians.. mourning wear, black roses and crows and serpents
i wouldn't say it's neogoth at all, it's not new.. it's the only type of goth i know actually. the goths i know dress very well. there is none of this fishnet stockings but i have seen that in movies...

 

[gius]

figments of an increasingly mad or heightened mind

Here is The Yellow Wallpaper by Charlotte Perkins Gilman
http://www.library.csi.cuny.edu/dept/history/lavender/wallpaper.html

it was the first i've ever read (written 1899) that was ever written like this..
it was so interesting.. that it was written in this time period
i thought it was a contemporary piece because of the content
but the writing style is different

Marios Schwab's inspiration for Fall 2008




gincat where did you get your ideas..?
did you study art history too..
i'm curious about the anxieties you wrote, dark looming forces, evil living inside people,sensitive soul...and the supernatural
if you have seen these in Art or in literature

to be honest, if we are looking for something new, then yes it is new i have never seen this type of 'goth' in fashion before or that many designers were so attracted to it. i find many people are drawn to dark/black because it says 'cool' very quickly and you can do a lot with it, in terms of pattern cutting and fabrics, getting away and keeping wearability

 

[from: sophia]

What I mean by 70s goth its not really formed yet but the long flat clothes long dark hair it is hippy cleaned up and darkened up like Patti Smith its more of a feeling I get than a movement.

 

[Tishkaminx]

There are loads of resources about ‘Goth’ out there. The best ones I have come accross are http://www.gothicsubculture.com/origin.php and http://www.blackwaterfall.com/viewall.php

The last one is pretty accurate representation of the types on the scene.

I don't think anyone has actually mentioned the Victorain Gothic aesthetic was actually a romantic version of the origional 'barbaric' (the 'non-classical/non-hellanistic meaning of the term) style of the germanic tribes of the 'Ostrogoths, Visigoths and Huns' in about the 4th century.

Modern Goth fashion started as darker aesthetic of punk called 'Darkwave' and incorporated influences of the new romantic as that came along- to create a style which is now referred to in the scene as the 'Trad Goth' type. The term 'Goth' applied to a music/fashion scene (as legend has it) was first attributed to an off-hand comment, possibly by Ian Astbury of the Cult.

As Blackwaterfall’s site shows, there are loads of subgenres out there- cross-over types etc. The newest type I’ve been involved with is a cross-over is a combination of traditional Arabesque costume with a romantic Gothic or industrial aesthetic. It’s quite beautiful. Search for ‘Industrial belly dance’ or ‘Tribal fusion’ if you are interested

 

[Tishkaminx]

Also- I just wanted to point out that 'NeoGoth' is a term which has been used since the 1990's to refer to CyberGoths. Just so there is no confusion.

 

[Tishkaminx]

Guis

Some good books which I like to read- early Poppy Z Brite (especially Lost Souls- some good goth fashion descriptions), Brothers Grimm fairy tales- the really olds ones are very weird and can be quite scary, Tanith Lee and Angela Carter write some beuatiful and haunting gothic versions of fairy stories and folk tales- Angela Carter wrote the tales which later became the dream-like film 'Company of Wolves' (one of my favourites)

 

[gius]

That's so interesting! Thanks for all of the info ^^
I love seeing all the different styles... Even in Japanese Goth, there are a lot of sub-categories. Some are called white lolita, amai (sweet), classic lolita, etc.

Funny I've come across several of these on the blackwaterfall site, since I came to the city.. and I remember thinking of them being goth although all of them looked different from eachother.

I had a "baby bat" in one of my old classes and a bunch of perky goths across from our class. and this year there is one corp goth. and i was friends with a geek goth in high school--she looks very close to the cartoon on that site XD

i've also only once come across the same type that you mentioned, when I was researching ethnic costume some time ago. It was a man though, Arabesque costume with romantic gothic. Very handsome!
i believe his female friends were belly dancers. he was the only man in the group

 

[gius]

I don't think anyone has actually mentioned the Victorain Gothic aesthetic was actually a romantic version of the origional 'barbaric' (the 'non-classical/non-hellanistic meaning of the term) style of the germanic tribes of the 'Ostrogoths, Visigoths and Huns' in about the 4th century.

i'm looking for pictures of these germanic tribes you mentioned .. not sure how it ties with victorian gothic.. maybe you mean just the accessories?
because they look like warriors, clothing-wise..
the long short sleeved "T-shirts" or tunics rather, made of chain mail and leggings/boots. shields..metal hats..

visigoth

strangeherring.wordpress.com

 

[fashionista-ta]

^ I have to say I'm not sure how it ties in either

 

[gius]

Thomas Cooper Gotch (1854–1931)

absoluteastronomy.com
wikimedia.org

 

[Tishkaminx]

Hi Guis

The historical Goth tribes do not tie in aethetically with a Victorian Aesthetic. They were the inspiration for medieval archtitecture, whic is why it is called 'Gothic' - a kind of look to the past. Then the Victorians took inspiration from the 'Medieval Gothic'. Modern Gothic looks have very little to do with the actual historical origions of the Gothic tribes- tghey are based around punk & New Romantic/Victoriana. I just thought it was fun to point out where the name first came from , but not the actual fashions

 

[Tishkaminx]

Not sure if this is still on topic:

The historical Goths were 4th century warriors - as your picture shows- that's prety standard European 4th century clothing. No one in the 4th century wore anything similar to Victorians. The modern romantic Victorian look that todays goths like, draws heavily on Victorain mourning garb. Here are some resources on it:

Collier’s Cyclopedia 1901 “Victorian Mourning Customs”
Harpers Bazar April 17, 1886 “Mourning and Funeral Usages”, “Death in the Victorian Family” by Pat Jalland.
“Daily life in Victorian England” by Sally Mitchell
“Victorian America. Transformations in everyday life 1876-1915” by Thomas J. Schlereth
“Death, Grief, & Mourning” Geoffrey Gorer. 1965 Doubleday

Recommended reading:
“The Victorian Underworld” by Donald Thomas
Peterson’s Magazine reprints from 1863 and 1864

Links:
www.history.rochester.edu/godeys
Godey’s Lady’s Book issues from the 1850’s.
www.nmfh.org
National Museum of Funeral History in Houston Texas.
Azrael’s Accomplice
Azrael’s Accomplice clothing company. Batty will make you a reproduction mourning gown.
www.fabriclink.com/dictionary.html
The educational resource for fabrics, apparel, home fashion and care.
www.hairworksociety.org
Victorian hair work society on line.
The Museum of Mourning Art is located at Arlington cemetery in Drexel, PA
(Just a half hour from Philly)
Phone # 601-259-5800

 

[Tishkaminx]

Sorry to go on but this subject facinates me:

Here is a link to the timeline of the use of the term Gothic:
http://www.angelfire.com/moon/darkchamber/goth-timeline.htm

The main usages of the terms are:
1. 4th century tribes
2. Medieval architecture
3. A style of Victorian literature and revival of medieval gothic architecure (i.e. Gothic revival)
4. 20th century post-punk fashion/music scene (links with Victorian mourning garb came later with the new romantic movement)

The links betwen the 4 things are tenous to say the least. The main thing they have in comon is the name. Here is a quote as to how modern "dark" counter-cultural fashion got it's name.
http://www.killyourpetpuppy.co.uk/news/?p=609

The term “goth” doesn’t seem to have been commonly applied to the movement until some time in 1983, several years after it had originally been used. In early 1983, the most common term for what became the goth movement was “Positive Punk“, or later “Posi-Punk”, courtesy of Richard North in the NME (February 1983).

In an interview with Dave Thompson and Jo-Anne Green of Alternative Press magazine in November 1994, Ian Astbury, the vocalist in Southern Death Cult, laid claim to having invented the goth tag:
“The goth tag was a bit of a joke,” insists Ian Astbury. “One of the groups coming up at the same time as us was Sex Gang Children, and Andi – he used to dress like a Banshees fan, and I used to call him the Gothic Goblin because he was a little guy, and he’s dark. He used to like Edith Piaf and this macabre music, and he lived in a building in Brixton called VisigothTowers. So he was the little Gothic Goblin, and his followers were Goths. That’s where goth came from.”

There was one band called Sex Gang Children who dressed in a very similar fashion to Bauhaus and Specimen. A load of us used to hang out with their singer, Andi Sex Gang. He lived on the top floor of an old Victorian house. We’d go up there for tea, and he’d be in a Chinese robe with black eye makeup on and his hair all done up, playing Edith Piaf albums with fifteen TVs turned on. We had this vision of him as Count Visigoth in his tower, holding court. At the time, Dave Dorrell heard us calling Andi “Count Visigoth” and his followers “goths,” so that’s what he called everyone in the scene.”

 

[ponytrot]

gius reading a few pages back, as a lit student here are my 2 cents into the Gothicism/Romanticism thing.

In literature, Romanticism and the Gothic mutually influenced and bled into one another.

The period for Romanticism is the late 18th to the early 19th Century. Some state the specific date as 1798 with the publication of Wordsworth's polemic work Lyrical Ballads.

Romanticism had characteristics of- the importance of the individual, the apocalyptic visions of revolution and new societies (influence of the French Revolution), the importance of the imagination, the supernatural, nature- particularly pantheistic nature worship, and also notions of the sublime and feelings of terror in the presence of grandiloquent nature.

This very much ties in with the Gothic, which also emphasises the supernatural, the subordination of reason to emotions and imagination, and they have common aspects such as terror and the sublime as evoked by nature, architecture and interiors.

There are many writers and many works which are considered both Gothic and Romantic, such as Mary Shelly. However they tend to be called the "latter" Romantics as the older Romantics ie. Coleridge, Wordsworth focused more on nature and revolution (in a spirit of perhaps greater optimism) while the latter Romantics/Gothics saw the disillusionment of the former idealistic notions of Revolution and tended towards darker elements.

The gothic is perhaps more psychological in nature, as gothic novels emphasised dark passageways, labrynthine cellars and the bowels of castles (one can deduce very freudian readings...ie passage ways of the mind, repressed sexuality etc).

not sure if that helped, but i agree- this is a very interesting topic.

 

[ponytrot]

oh and also- mention of the *sublime earlier in the thread,

the contemporary meaning as it usually is used takes sublime to mean beautiful, great, startlingly lovely.

in the gothic/romantic sense the sublime refers actually to a sense of eerie otherworldliness, in Wordsworth's terms "a spontaneous overflow of overpowering emotion", which is closely linked to terror felt in the presense of grand/breathtaking scenery/architecture.

which i think is part of what Gothic clothing/fashion is trying to convey- a sense of powerful emotion.

 

[fashion.fashoff]

i just found this thread tonite, but i love reading it...really informative, interesting, and inspiring.

have always been interested in the goth aesthetic (esp. neogoth, victorian goth, and romantic goth). just haven't been exposed to it much until seeing the FIT 'dark glamor' exhibit in jan., and then meeting some new goth friends recently.

anyway, my new goth friends like going to goth nights at clubs where you are supposed to wear all black and have a goth style. since i'm still not fully up on goth attire, and don't have anything specifically goth in my wardrobe, i wasn't sure what to wear... last time i threw together the outfit below. would appreciate honest comments, suggestions for improvement, etc... have seen much more fetishy/bdsm goth at these parties than what i like. but i'm not sure if my outfit looks too contrived, too stevie nicks, etc. or if it seems ok for the goth scene...

 

[GasolineRainbow]

^You're so modest, as usual. Of course that works, imo you'd be one of the best-dressed people there. I'm not really aware of how goths dress in NYC (being 'required' to wear black does not sound like a positive sign for creative dressing). But I think you fit into a darkwave aesthetic very well, from what I've seen. You don't have to shop from specific goth brands and stores; in fact, I find those stores tend to stifle creativity.

 

[ElectricAlyce]

You look perfectly gothic for a gothclub. Goth clubs aren't that strict, as long as you don't come dressed with white sneakers, blue jeans and a white tank (even if you did, you could just whisper to the doorman that "the damned conformists are so violent I have to wear a disguise" and you'd probably be fine)

 

[fashion.fashoff]

^thanks guys . i usually see more tradgoth stuff...not so much in the way of black layers (and no other men in skirts...) so i wasn't 100% sure if i was on the right track

 

[inferno]

this me me having a go at nugoth
except ignore the pink shoes, i forgot i was wearing them and forgot to crop them out of the picture. haha