The Vegetarian & Vegan Thread

[BaroqueRockstar]

You've all given great answers to why you are vegetarians. It really can be a healthy way to live.

The reason given above has always made me curious about the following questions.

1. Why don't people feel guilty about cutting and killing plants? They are just trying to grow and reproduce the same as animals. They are made up of cells just like animals. Some plants (like a venus fly trap) even have a type of nervous system which means they could have feelings.

2. What level of animal causes these guilty feelings? Sure monkeys, cows, and pigs are relatable. But how about spiders, ants, worms? Or how about these little animals that live in the pores on your face? Do people feel guilty about the dozens of animals they kill everyday just by cleaning themselves or walking around?

Why do people feel so guilty?

frankly, i don't feel bad for the animals. i don't eat meat because i don't like it.
you bring up a good point, though. i don't understand why some organisms are valued more than others. IMO it's much worse to chop down a tree than to eat a chicken (but i'm much more pro-environment than pro-animals so i'm quite biased).
i think the reason why some people feel bad for some things rather than others is reaction. for instance, there are pictures and videos of pigs squirming while being executed. plants can't exactly squirm like pigs, so there's nothing there to make people feel guilty.

 

[Whitelinen]

I've been thinking about going to a vegetarian diet, simply because I don't like meat at all. Meat can easily take my appetite away.

If you are a vegetarian, is it hard to get enough of the nutrients you would normally get through meat? Do you have to cook more (I personally hate cooking)? What are the steps in adjusting to a vegetarian diet?

 

[BaroqueRockstar]

i never cook, but i do eat out a lot
honestly, i don't pay as much attention to nutrients as i probably should, but i do eat a lot of soy products, which i hope makes up for protein
best idea would probably be to see a dietition...

 

[hitzpink]

I'm just checking in after being absent from TFS for a few months, and I have to say I'm extremely disappointed with the turn this thread has taken. Why do meat-eaters so often feel it necessary to critisize and attack our views? I would never go into an "Omnivore" thread to talk about how delicious tofu is and how much healthier vegetarians are, so why do people feel the need to do it in the Vegetarian thread? I thought this was supposed to be a safe place for us to discuss being vegetarians, trade recipes, comiserate about rude people, etc. Argh.

Anyway, to answer the question of "but plants have feelings too!":

Yes, plants are capable of responding to their environment (i.e. the weeping willow somebody mentioned), and they have chemical reactions to certain stimuli. And of course they are valuable to the ecosystem, and I think all living things should be valued. However, they are not sentient. They have no capacity for memory or learning, nor conscious sensory awareness. They do NOT experience pain like animals do. From a purely evolutionary standpoint, what purpose would fear/pain serve to a plant? Fear and pain responses are so that you can get yourself out of danger. A plant can not just pick up its roots and run away!

But even if it was absolutely 100% proven that plants "have feelings", well, to me being a vegetarian or a vegan is about REDUCING my impact on the planet. It's about reducing the amount of suffering that I cause, not eliminating it completely, because that would be impossible. So questions like "but what about the bacteria that you kill everytime you wash your face?" are just ridiculous. I mean, what do you expect us to say? "Wow, you're right! Since I'm killing bacteria on a daily basis, I might as well go ahead and kill a few cows/chickens/fish while I'm at it!"

 

[TheKiwi]

hitzpink, I totally agree with you! I'm not even a vegetarian, but I totally agree with everything you just said. The arguments that eating plants is just the same as eating meat is just ridiculous, because animals are much more aware and have more feelings than plants. I really don't know how this thread became a place for non-vegetarians to bash vegetarians, but it really should stop. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and their own way of life.

 

[thebeautybrains]

I'm just checking in after being absent from TFS for a few months, and I have to say I'm extremely disappointed with the turn this thread has taken. Why do meat-eaters so often feel it necessary to critisize and attack our views? I would never go into an "Omnivore" thread to talk about how delicious tofu is and how much healthier vegetarians are, so why do people feel the need to do it in the Vegetarian thread? I thought this was supposed to be a safe place for us to discuss being vegetarians, trade recipes, comiserate about rude people, etc. Argh.

I'm so sorry for any roll I may have played in making you feel uncomfortable. I only posed the two questions above because I had a genuine curiousity. It was not meant to judge people that are vegetarians. I think it's a fine way to live life and one that can be quite healthy. Really, I meant no criticism. I was trained as a biologist and developed a view of equivalence between plants and animals. Honestly, I don't expect other people to share that view but I'm always curious why people don't. Thank you for your answer.

 

[thebeautybrains]

to me being a vegetarian or a vegan is about REDUCING my impact on the planet. It's about reducing the amount of suffering that I cause, not eliminating it completely, because that would be impossible.

Scientists have developed a method for creating animal-free meat. The way it works is you take a tissue sample from an animal like a cow, pig, chicken, etc. (no more harm to the animal than taking a blood sample). Then you take those cells and grow them up in thin sheets providing them with the needed nutrients.

In the end, you're left with a Spam-type product which can be eaten by people. No animals or plants harmed in the process. Suffering on the planet reduced significantly. It sounds like a great idea to me but I'm not sure everyone would agree.
Is this something scientists should be developing futher or not?

 

[SiennaInLondon]

Common sense isn't any kind of proof. This is just the kind of thing people say when they have no proof and only have "faith". What are these diseases associated with hormones and pesticides? And by "chemicals" what do you mean? Water is a chemical. Is that bad? Protein, olive oil, peanut oil are all chemicals. What makes one thing a "bad" chemical and another chemical not bad?

I'm perfectly willing to accept that hormones/pesticides/chemicals should be avoided but I need some scientific proof. Not just the marketing garbage made up by some natural, organic corporation who is just trying to sucker me into buying their stuff.

Fearing chemicals without proof is irrational.

This I would dispute as you know the beautybrains. Common sense is proof that is gained from observation instead of multimillion pound lab experiments.

No one said fear chemicals but if they can be easily avoided (in terms of synthetic chemicals) in favour of the finesse job nature does, then why not. Also what order are you going to accept things. Are you going to avoid the chemicals and then look for proof (a wise move) or vice versa?

 

[SiennaInLondon]

This is great. You're my hero! You could be an honorary Beauty Brain.

The death of skepticism is the real tragedy in this world.

Well I don't think scepticism is dead. But I do agree that the death of scepticism would be a tragedy should it occur. But what is more dangerous in the Western world is the resolute misconception of what is scientific and what isn't. Religion can be and science is not necessarily...

 

[SiennaInLondon]

sure its marketed propaganda. Tell that to ill people who healed after changing their diet. Right, like unnatural food is superior to healthy natural food. Who are you kidding?

Look at her flawed arguments in this thread Kateelle. I think it is a case of enjoying playing the devil's advocate, without being particularly adept at it!
http://www.thefashionspot.com/forums/f45/honey-51707.html

 

[SiennaInLondon]

You've all given great answers to why you are vegetarians. It really can be a healthy way to live.

The reason given above has always made me curious about the following questions.

1. Why don't people feel guilty about cutting and killing plants? They are just trying to grow and reproduce the same as animals. They are made up of cells just like animals. Some plants (like a venus fly trap) even have a type of nervous system which means they could have feelings.

2. What level of animal causes these guilty feelings? Sure monkeys, cows, and pigs are relatable. But how about spiders, ants, worms? Or how about these little animals that live in the pores on your face? Do people feel guilty about the dozens of animals they kill everyday just by cleaning themselves or walking around?

Why do people feel so guilty?

Err scientifically? Guilt is a reaction to being a social animal. We feel guilt when we hurt others partly because it teaches us not to do the same thing again. If we hurt others unnecessarily, we put ourselves as unecessary risk. It is the same thing with other species that pose us no threat. Why hurt them and piss them off. It is quite simple.

I think her answer that she 'respects life' is good enough and really encapsulates what I have said above. If there is a system where all life is respected, then our lives will be too. It really is an ideal for any cognitive or less cognitive creature.

Those who don't respect life, who don't hurt when something is in anguish, are no dissimilar to anarchists, who don't really have any intellectual foundation or objective. They are the vilest type of creatures. Even if you don't want to be alive, why rock the boat? None of us have a choice, so we all may as well make the best of it.

 

[thebeautybrains]

Look at her flawed arguments in this thread Kateelle. I think it is a case of enjoying playing the devil's advocate, without being particularly adept at it!
http://www.thefashionspot.com/forums/f45/honey-51707.html

Ah, more insults. I love you too Sienna.

 

[seanutbutter]

I hope you lot don't mind me changing the subject somewhat, but I really wanted to ask this question here

What meat products, if any, do you miss since becoming a vegetarian?

For me, the answer is fish. I seldom miss hamburgers, hot dogs and what have you, due to a wide variety of replacements (Morningstar, Boca, etc.), but there are absolutely no fake versions of fish.

 

[SiennaInLondon]

Ah, more insults. I love you too Sienna.

What is with you and making up insults where there are none? I just gave the link because the subject is related and I was curious to gage people's reactions to our discussion. You know I think your argument is flawed! Don't you?

 

[chanelnumber5]

I hope you lot don't mind me changing the subject somewhat, but I really wanted to ask this question here

What meat products, if any, do you miss since becoming a vegetarian?

For me, the answer is fish. I seldom miss hamburgers, hot dogs and what have you, due to a wide variety of replacements (Morningstar, Boca, etc.), but there are absolutely no fake versions of fish.

Yeh, fish is the one I deffinately miss most - all the rest just gross me out just to look at them. Things like salmon and sushi look so nice!! And there is no alternative, please food scientists make vegetarian fish!

 

[Elegance.Is.Refusal.]

What meat products, if any, do you miss since becoming a vegetarian?

i dont really miss the meat i rarely eat quorn i do it mainly for the protien aspect. Although i find i miss the smell when cooking, that lovely meaty smell you get from a roast or when you cook bacon

strange i know but i also love the smell of leather

 

[BaroqueRockstar]

LOBSTER LOBSTER LOBSTER!!!
i SOOOO miss lobster

 

[kare2711]

Yes, plants are capable of responding to their environment (i.e. the weeping willow somebody mentioned), and they have chemical reactions to certain stimuli. And of course they are valuable to the ecosystem, and I think all living things should be valued. However, they are not sentient. They have no capacity for memory or learning, nor conscious sensory awareness. They do NOT experience pain like animals do. From a purely evolutionary standpoint, what purpose would fear/pain serve to a plant? Fear and pain responses are so that you can get yourself out of danger. A plant can not just pick up its roots and run away!

But even if it was absolutely 100% proven that plants "have feelings", well, to me being a vegetarian or a vegan is about REDUCING my impact on the planet. It's about reducing the amount of suffering that I cause, not eliminating it completely, because that would be impossible. So questions like "but what about the bacteria that you kill everytime you wash your face?" are just ridiculous. I mean, what do you expect us to say? "Wow, you're right! Since I'm killing bacteria on a daily basis, I might as well go ahead and kill a few cows/chickens/fish while I'm at it!"

I couldn't have said it better, Hitzpink.

Yes, I would agree the keyword here is reduction. If I could survive without eating plants, I would.

And why the feeling of guilt? I guess that's very subjective. I'm not speaking for the others but I'm very, very weird in a sensitive sort of way. I don't only feel for living things, I feel for non-living things too. To give you an idea, I'll give an example. Whenever I want to throw away something (or even when I lose something), little voices go off in my head. "Why don't you want me anymore?" "What is going to happen to me?" "Please come back for me. I feel so lonely." I have to force myself not to think about these.

Don't flame me. I've already said I'm weird.

 

[kare2711]

I hope you lot don't mind me changing the subject somewhat, but I really wanted to ask this question here

What meat products, if any, do you miss since becoming a vegetarian?

Seafood!!!! I love seafood. Fish, shrimp, crabs even. They're so white and fleshy and oooh, grill them and they're a delight.

 

[misssakura]

I don't feel guilty about eating plants. I've thought about it but I don't. The only guilt i'd feel is for having too big an impact on the eco-system merely for my dietary needs. And I deplore the cutting down of trees. I don't feel guilty about eating seeds either, as they are designed to be eaten, passed through and then this passes on the chain of life as they sprout in a new location. I respect plants but I don't consider them to be self aware in the same sense as animals.

I miss tuna and salmon the most. I miss it so much. Also the other day we went for a christmas dinner and the man of the house had caught a giant lobster himself. The wife had roasted it up, with split shells and had grated on cheese and herbs. The flesh was white and crumbly. I was salivating just looking at it...part of my brain was thinking "come on, the guy is an experienced fisherman, he only caught one, it died without much pain, can't hurt to eat it?" but I resisted because in the end not eating flesh is a lifestyle choice and I have to do what makes me mentally happier in the longrun