Admit It. You Love It. It Matters.(NYT) - fashion as a culturally potent force

[wheneveriwakeup]

Many admirers of fashion do nothing more than perpetuate the notion that fashion is shallow and ultimately nonsensical. Though, in this 'i need, i want' culture, what else is to be expected, rly? Everyone's hands are in the jar, just depends on what cookie suits your taste. There are ppl. who truly appreciate the time, patience, thought and undeniable talent that goes into creating these clothes that can catapult one into their own personal utopia. Prime examples are here on this very forum.! Sadly, the designers who have something to say rarely see the light of day beyond their respective groups. Thus, the naysayers don't have much to go on which trickles back to the elistist nature of fashion. Do the 'fashion ppl.' really want the 'others' to truly 'get it'? Would the 'others' consider fashion if it weren't so daunting from an outside perspective?

Trends are inevitable, no matter how deeply you abhor their influence, but blindly following, constantly re-evaluating your stance on fashion and always feeling the need to buy what you're TOLD you must have is where fashion becomes oppressive and demoralizing, imo. Clothing can only truly tell a story about a person when it is an honest interpretation of that person's inner psyche. Idealism and delusion at it's best, yes, but that is, imo, when fashion can transcend from the pitt of superficiality. When everyone isn't trying to prove a sophomoric pt. with what they're wearing, but more, for want of better term, 'being themselves'.

Idk if that rant made any sense but it sure did start a fire inside me.

Great thread and great article. Thanks!

 

[MulletProof]

^

and that's all I can articulate right now.. with this 110 degree weather.

 

[nqth]

Fashion is interesting when there is sth new, but not just in term of clothes design. It used to "change" the world in 60s, 70s, even 80s. and 90s, along with "youth quake", the hippies, power women and the angry and "lazy" grunge movement. But not now, everything is so "been there done that" this day, which is a pitty. But I do think in the most creative years of fashion, it always followed sth else. The change was never originated by fashion, which rather acts as a mirrow reflecting the changes.

Maybe it is ok, since fashion will never cause death and suffering, except the "heroine chic". And maybe that's why it never let to "intelectual issue":-)

 

[softgrey]

Many admirers of fashion do nothing more than perpetuate the notion that fashion is shallow and ultimately nonsensical. Though, in this 'i need, i want' culture, what else is to be expected, rly? Everyone's hands are in the jar, just depends on what cookie suits your taste. There are ppl. who truly appreciate the time, patience, thought and undeniable talent that goes into creating these clothes that can catapult one into their own personal utopia. Prime examples are here on this very forum.! Sadly, the designers who have something to say rarely see the light of day beyond their respective groups. Thus, the naysayers don't have much to go on which trickles back to the elistist nature of fashion. Do the 'fashion ppl.' really want the 'others' to truly 'get it'? Would the 'others' consider fashion if it weren't so daunting from an outside perspective?

Trends are inevitable, no matter how deeply you abhor their influence, but blindly following, constantly re-evaluating your stance on fashion and always feeling the need to buy what you're TOLD you must have is where fashion becomes oppressive and demoralizing, imo. Clothing can only truly tell a story about a person when it is an honest interpretation of that person's inner psyche. Idealism and delusion at it's best, yes, but that is, imo, when fashion can transcend from the pitt of superficiality. When everyone isn't trying to prove a sophomoric pt. with what they're wearing, but more, for want of better term, 'being themselves'.

Idk if that rant made any sense but it sure did start a fire inside me.

Great thread and great article. Thanks!

good points..
many designers are the most elitest of the bunch ...
and while some of us lament that they don't get enough exposure...
for some, they don't actually want the exposure...
the shy away from the spotlight and the 'mainstream'...
and they want their clothes only to be worn by a certain 'clan'...

to that point...
another purpose that clothes serve, can be to identify members of various 'clans' to one another...i think people do this often...
but i think many more people are doing this everyday than even realize they are doing it...
it isn't always a conscious thing...

on another note...
someone actually called me an 'intellectual stylist'...
so i can personally testify that fashion can indeed be an intellectual pursuit...
to say otherwise indicates a lack of deeper understanding of what fashion really is and can be....
beyond the obviously superficial ...

but i do think that every single person working in the world of fashion really thinks deep down int their hearts...'it's just clothes'...

 

[wheneveriwakeup]

^ I agree, softgrey. I think the styling and crafting of clothing is incredibly intellectual. It is very easy to throw on clothing as it should be for the sake of survival but to actually style garments in a clever and unexpected manner is another thing entirely. Fashion is such a glamorous and visually driven machine, thus the technical side is often ignored or perhaps it has never existed in the first place to many individuals.

When people learn to consider all aspects of culture, esp. the aspects that differ from their subscribed ideas of normalcy or justified merit , the world, as it is said too often, will be a much more pleasent place to not only live, but also thrive in.

This is such a fascinating discussion. Hope more ppl. add their ideas and feelings to it. Plz!

 

[softgrey]

to be honest...
i dont' believe that everyone who follows 'fashion' really pursues it from an intellectual perspective...maybe people like me are in the minority now...
i certainly feel like i am in the minority...

more and more these days younger designers are churning out 'party dresses'...
'pretty pretty' and hoping that someone like paris hilton will wear it...
so they can get the press...

a lot of young girls who think they are really 'into' fashion, have NO CLUE...
and with the craze for hollywood celebrity and bling bling culture, more and more people are 'into' fashion..without having the slightest clue what they are doing or talking about...
everyone is trying so hard and is SUCH a wannabe...

it's rather ridiculous and sometimes you just have to laugh...
or you will cry...
...
i have no idea where this is all headed...
i keep waiting for some sort of backlash...

where is it!!!...???...
...

 

[wheneveriwakeup]

^ Bring it on!

It is definitely a minority and even within 'fashion circles' the intellectual side is generally seen as pretentious and rightfully so at times, too. I feel that the line of distinction is blurred. Maybe that's the beauty of it... the options, the choices. Before the 80's there were set styles and ways to look. Now, esp. with individuality on the rise, there is a bit more harmony where dress is concerned. It's down to the individual's taste - will you or will you not be a clone? Will you or will you not be a barbie? Will you or will you not be 'avant-garde'? And so on...

 

[Madhuri]

a lot of young girls who think they are really 'into' fashion, have NO CLUE...
and with the craze for hollywood celebrity and bling bling culture, more and more people are 'into' fashion..without having the slightest clue what they are doing or talking about...
everyone is trying so hard and is SUCH a wannabe...

Playing devil's advocate, aren't people who intellectualize fashion trying harder than the people who wear clothes because they're pretty and makes them feel good? Is there something inherently wrong with a person saying "I like that dress, I think I'll look good in it, therefore I'll wear it?" Is it any less ludricrous to attempt to convey a deep statement about oneself through various pieces of fabric than it is to simply acknowledge that surface appearances matter more to someone than pyschology? If we treat fashion as an artistic or intellectual endeavor why should everyone be expected to have an advanced knowledge or interest in fashion? Not everyone is interested in painting, footbal, math..etc. Do we look down on those people in society?

 

[gius]

^i think some people do

anyway yeah i guess the point is, fashion has this dark and corrupt side... 'shopaholic'-ism, elitism, etc. but it is only one part of fashion. it's so easy to see this side because it's everywhere in magazines, on tv, in movies, in people you meet everyday
i don't think we can look down on them because really they are lost in their own lives and haven't reached that point where they know themselves well enough to see only what they truly want in their lives. i think we all reach that time at some point... maybe it's only those ones that are alone most of the time that reach that level earlier. i know from my experience, it's the over sociable and extroverted types that are 'lost'. plus maybe it's normal to have desires in wanting to be part of a certain group, makes one feel special maybe and needed..

it's nice to have people who can appreciate and be able to see certain details (like some clothes will have pockets designed in a new way but only people who know about clothes can actually notice the 'new' design). but i've talked with these 'non-intellectual' types and it is actually nice being around them once in a while.. as a break.. exciting if you see something you like and they say they like it too. and then you realise you might have broken into a "market" if you know what i mean.
my sister is one of these people and i guess it's just good to mention things like "look at how they pleated the skirt... it's unusual..." if they don't see it themselves and i find a lot of them cheer up a bit after realising it and say wow,etc.

 

[justinleaddict]

well, when it is obvious that someone's wardrobe is very influenced by society, i.e. things like LV bags which help her to identify with celebs and the upper class, then yes, there is a problem imo

 

[PrettyInPinkO21]

I agree with the article when it says that often people are ashamed to say that they follow fashion or believe in it as a true art form.

I can't relate to people that are like "its just CLOTHES..." - I think it's so much more than that. It is the most visible means of individual expression for one, and it can truly make a person feel happy.

Are people really ashamed to say they follow fashion? How about anyone in this thread? Are you embarassed to admit it?


And to all of the people who called me ignorant:
I have studied fashion and communications in 8 countries and I have visited even more. I have met people from all walks of life and I speak 3 languages. I've fed and cared for the poor and taught college students in Italy English for 10 months... and I turned 19 only weeks ago. NEVER call me ignorant.

 

[nqth]

^ it doesn't really matter what you do darling. It's how you dress!

Just joking:-P

 

[softgrey]

pink...

let's stay on topic please...
we never asked for your resume...

 

[softgrey]

Playing devil's advocate, aren't people who intellectualize fashion trying harder than the people who wear clothes because they're pretty and makes them feel good? Is there something inherently wrong with a person saying "I like that dress, I think I'll look good in it, therefore I'll wear it?" Is it any less ludricrous to attempt to convey a deep statement about oneself through various pieces of fabric than it is to simply acknowledge that surface appearances matter more to someone than pyschology? If we treat fashion as an artistic or intellectual endeavor why should everyone be expected to have an advanced knowledge or interest in fashion? Not everyone is interested in painting, footbal, math..etc. Do we look down on those people in society?

what i say is that the people who are only interested in the superficial are only interested in clothes...
which is perfectly fine and dandy...for them...

FASHION...with a capital F..is something else altogether...
it's the difference between W mag and Lucky...
night and day...

i don't think art or creativity is pretentious...
i think people who don't understand it call it that...
and likewise...
i do not expect that everyone is born with talent or creativity...
so i don't think it is possible for everyone to have 'style'..and make a statement with their wardrobe...
actually...
i know it isn't...from experience..
and from all the people who ask me to help them dress themselves...
even people in the industry...
...

however... i repeat...

i do think that every single person working in the world of fashion really thinks deep down in their hearts...'it's just clothes'...

 

[kuba01]

Are people really ashamed to say they follow fashion? How about anyone in this thread? Are you embarassed to admit it?

Well sort of. When people ask me what my hobbies are, or what I do in my spare time - they expect an answer along the lines of "I play basketball or I play tennis, or I play piano". When somebody says "I'm interested in fashion" - people frown upon that. They're like "ohhhh....but what are your HOBBIES/INTERESTS?".

What I'm saying is that fashion is generally viewed as something that people only think about when they dress up and go out, or when they shop - its not something that society views as a respectable interest.

Saying that you love fashion, has a lot of stigma to it because people just won't respect you. That's society for you


Sorry about my rant, but does anyone get it?!

 

[misssakura]

I think a lot of people are afraid, or ashamed to admit that wearing nice clothes that suit them can make the difference between feeling "okay" and "great". It's somewhat of an illogical thing. Why does a piece of fabric over our naked forms make us feel better? Perhaps an uncultured reference but 'What not to wear' always proved this point, they'd take a woman who felt useless and ugly, put some new clothes on her and instantly it would change her attitudes. I suppose people are afraid of the 'superficial' fix, apart from a money issue, wearing clothes isn't exactly an intellectual achievement. The same as getting a haircut or a manicure.

At the end of the day sometimes I pause and think how odd it is that I'm wearing clothes at all instead of parading around naked. Then I see an Oscar de la Renta and forget everything. Wearable art that boosts confidence? I'm in!

 

[Bel]

ew... I really pity those people who think fashion is stupid and superficial and not worth paying attention too. People sometimes don't realized just how powerful clothes are and how you can improve your personal life and professional impact just by changing the way you dress in a right way.

Pity is a good word. It usually makes me feel angry. I wish I could train myself to just feel pity, it seems healthier.

 

[softgrey]

I think a lot of people are afraid, or ashamed to admit that wearing nice clothes that suit them can make the difference between feeling "okay" and "great". It's somewhat of an illogical thing. Why does a piece of fabric over our naked forms make us feel better? Perhaps an uncultured reference but 'What not to wear' always proved this point, they'd take a woman who felt useless and ugly, put some new clothes on her and instantly it would change her attitudes. I suppose people are afraid of the 'superficial' fix, apart from a money issue, wearing clothes isn't exactly an intellectual achievement. The same as getting a haircut or a manicure.

At the end of the day sometimes I pause and think how odd it is that I'm wearing clothes at all instead of parading around naked. Then I see an Oscar de la Renta and forget everything. Wearable art that boosts confidence? I'm in!

that's only a fair comparison if you wear an outfit exactly as it is shown on a runway or mannequin or magazine...because then you are 'just putting on clothes'...

but if you put any thought into it and select each item carefully with some reason ..then it is nothing like getting a haircut or manicure...
because it is not a passive endeavour but a proactive/expressive one...

it is THEN that it becomes culturally relevant and becomes 'FASHION'...
rather than just clothes...

 

[Spike413]

I'm definitely enjoying some of the arguments being presented here...and some have definitly made me think.

My thoughts on the intellectual/superficial; I think that's what the real beauty in fashion (not expensive clothes as softgrey pointed out) is. It can begin as something cerebral or intellectual and ultimately becomes something sensual, which in turn can become intellectual in an entirely new way.

I hope that makes sense to someone other then me.

 

[softgrey]

I hope that makes sense to someone other then me.

..
it does...

It can begin as something cerebral or intellectual and ultimately becomes something sensual, which in turn can become intellectual in an entirely new way.

this is a tremendously insightful comment...
very cool spike...

*i put on my tom ford shades for you dear...