Admit It. You Love It. It Matters.(NYT) - fashion as a culturally potent force

[lesypersound]

i have a lot of respect for style over trend or fashion. one-ups and flashing status is really superficial and what i think puritan sensibilities are against (vanity, consumerism). dressing intelligently is style imo.
i'm not too sure how i feel about the conclusion. i do not think that fashion causes the synergistic effect of class, beauty, art, and money. i think money attracts those things first and foremost... then fashion/trend is used to signal status--especially with a lot of the stuff talked about on these boards. still--i respect the acquired knowledge and art of styling and fashion. :]

 

[wheneveriwakeup]

Beautiful words, Spike!

The confusion lies exactly there - 'fashion' is much more than putting on clothes as they 'should be' or copying the 'essence' of your favorite designer. It also boils down to the person wearing the clothes. As softgrey said, some people have the ability to reek of style, sensuality, and coolnesss no matter what they're wearing. 'Style' (I use the term loosely here, btw) has always been determined by who you're wearing, how current the item is, and of course, the pricetag that accompanied it. It is even more evident as time passes by and celebrities continue to reign supreme. Though as with everything, that powerful inkling of rebellion bubbles underneath. The rebellion spells choice. I don't agree with the 'pretty dress' notion, either. Obvious beauty, in any form, is always lovely to behold but I feel that people have so much more to offer than being asethetically pleasing in the most basic and surface sense, esp. since like a pretty face, a pretty dress is a dime-a-dozen these days. You might as well be a bonafide dressmaker as far as I'm concerned.

 

[gius]

i think taking care how to dress is good...
and so is design...
both is part of fashion, no?
i find some kind of joy if i see something made in an un-usual way

i've never met anyone who looked down on me if i said i was into fashion
i never say i'm into it though
they just see it if they meet me or live with me
i think everyone likes fashion one way or another

 

[gius]

As softgrey said, some people have the ability to reek of style, sensuality, and coolnesss no matter what they're wearing.

i think this only works if the person's face is 'right' for the look

 

[softgrey]

i think everyone likes fashion one way or another

i think everyone likes 'pretty things'...

but fashion is often ugly...and many people don't like that...



comme des garcons, martin margiela and the like are good examples of this...

 

[chloehandbags]

Anyways, the reason I love fashion so much is because it's a physical art. I can touch it, feel it, and bring it with me where ever I go. I can't really do that with a painting or a statue for example.

That's why I love fashion, too.

The best fashion designers are a combination of artist, sculptor and architect.

The only parts of my personality I am projecting through what I wear are my love of art and design and my strong belief in the basic human right to wear what one likes.

I'm sure anyone attempting to analyse my personality, through my choice of dress, would get me all wrong, as although I'm no wimp, I think I'm actually far more shy than my outward appearance would lead most people to believe!

In fact, in the past, I've told people I'm shy and had them look me up and down and say; 'You're not!'!

That's not to say that modern fashion doesn't sometimes annoy me, too, with its, often artificial, one season in, next season out, next season in again trend dictations. But the natural flow of fashion, which seems to occur almost as a group conciousness event (and often without any real need for trend forecasters!) and which is only really interrupted by major events, like world wars, is a wonderful, natural, almost organic process.

 

[chloehandbags]

I constantly wonder why fashion is the only artform that isn't considered relevant. So many people don't realize that fashion is the only artform that is part of everyday life regardless of class, gender, age, religion and all of those other cultural dividers and as such could be considered the most relevant of all.

ITA.

As the article said, we (i.e. people from the UK and even more so, people from the US [especially the NW states], due to the Pilgrim Journey and subsequent emigration of Puritans from England to New England in the 17th Century) are largely decended from Puritans and as such, hold deep seated cultural beliefs that decoration in general, is, at best, frivolous (as it distracts us from thinking about God) and adorning of the self is even worse, as it is vanity (and is, therefore, also sinful).

Things are rather different in much of continental Europe (especially Italy), where Catholicism has, historically, been far more prevalent - as can be seen by the opulent decoration of Catholic churches.

It's not based on logic, as logically, fashion is just as valid an artform as painting or sculpture; it is based on deeply ingrained religious values and prejudice.

 

[chloehandbags]

we've all seen how a communist utopian society works out in practice.

Of course, technically, there has never been any such thing as a truly communist society.

 

[misstarshine]

My experience is that yes if you mention fashion people look at you as if your superficial. If you spend money on clothes generally most people see that as a waste of money...

But my argument against them is what do they spend their money on and how do they dress themselves. Generally its nice cars, furniture, bikes etc. These are all a form of fashion as they are a way of expressing the person.

Then what do they wear? usually the people that are anti-fashion are wearing a form of fashion themselves. My traveling friends all wear thai pants and sandals even when they no longer need to so as to be seen as travelers. My country friends all wear Canterbury shirts to be associated with that style, my uni friends wear jeans, thongs and t-shirts or ugg boots and tracksuits to be associated as uni students who are so busy studying they can't be bothered. My friends working in the corporate world wear suits.

These may not be "fashion" but, when they get dressed they choose to portray themselves using fashion as an expression. It frustrates me because they will say that knowledge of fashion is useless and yet every person is influenced by it as it is our way of showing who we are

 

[misssakura]

that's only a fair comparison if you wear an outfit exactly as it is shown on a runway or mannequin or magazine...because then you are 'just putting on clothes'...

but if you put any thought into it and select each item carefully with some reason ..then it is nothing like getting a haircut or manicure...
because it is not a passive endeavour but a proactive/expressive one...

it is THEN that it becomes culturally relevant and becomes 'FASHION'...
rather than just clothes...

I mostly agree with you...I think people can put thought into clothing and create an ensemble that may follow the trend or emulate a certain 'look'. But I think it takes real talent and creativity to step outside the box and really create what may be 'fashion' in a personal sense. I think people can learn to put together a nice outfit and appreciate the more outlandish aspects of designer's collections, but I don't think that fashion 'sense' can be learned as it's such a personal thing. I can't remember where I was going with this...

Ah yes...I think the article touches on how the general public perceives fashion, and since many people (including those who are cited as being 'style icons') are influenced by those who have 'fashion sense' and are often styled by others...then fashion becomes more an issue of designers and those who wear the clothes, nothing inbetween.

Not to say it's true but I think that's where the root of the misunderstanding lies.

Edit: this post is weird...I guess what I'm trying to say is...people either see a designer/stylist or somebody who wears the clothes...with no room inbetween for those who are in the world of fashion....does that make sense? I don't know anymore.

 

[nqth]

>i do think that every single person working in the world of fashion really thinks >deep down in their hearts...'it's just clothes'...

I saw a documentary about John Lennon yesterday. He said to a young man, (who I suppose was thinking Lennon was God) that he just put words together.

Yes, clothes are for fashion what notes and words are for musicians, writers, journalists... You can tell a lot thru clothes, well if you have sth interesting to tell.

 

[sarah13]

Fashion is an amazing tool for self expression. If you have the savy, fashion can be and expression not just of who you are but who you want to project. And I mean that in a good way. I grew up wearing a uniform to school for my entire life and I loved it. Now I love working in a formal business atmosphere. I work with many men and my high heals and structured jackets project an image. Then on the weekend my ballet flats and skinny jeans project another image. Sure they are comfortable, but sweats are comfortable and I choose not to wear them.

 

[softgrey]

>i do think that every single person working in the world of fashion really thinks >deep down in their hearts...'it's just clothes'...

I saw a documentary about John Lennon yesterday. He said to a young man, (who I suppose was thinking Lennon was God) that he just put words together.

Yes, clothes are for fashion what notes and words are for musicians, writers, journalists... You can tell a lot thru clothes, well if you have sth interesting to tell.

i saw that documentary awhile back...
yes...that is a cool statement...
john and yoko both understood the power of fashion...
they were both major style icons in the 70's...

and of course john was with the beatles as well...

but i think yoko most of all really understood ...
she always had amazing style...she was an artist..so that makes sense..

 

[nqth]

Oh Yoko:-) I remember a part of the Absolutely Fabulous series, when the girls decided to make a rock party with all trendy ppl (Elton John and such:-) because Edina felt in love with a guy who loves the Beatles. And he was about to reveal an unpublished Beatles song. So they managed to invite Yoko to the party, via TV conference:-) And all that was seen was a pair of blk glasses. It was so funny, in a creazy way. And so true about style. You see the glasses and you immediately think it's Yoko, wherether it was her, or not.

 

[sarah13]

^ I remember that episode as well! So great and hilarious.

I think with all things in life, fashion has it's importance and ability to do amazing things, but also must have a humor.

I realize I am personifying and inanimate object...fashion...but I could not think of a better way to relay what I was thinking.

 

[meme527]

i printed out the article so i could read it over a few times - it was great, thanks for posting.

the original article mentions class issues without using the actual word "class" - and skirts around the elephant in the room which is Conspicuous Consumption - that is, wearing, eating, most importantly BUYING things in order to be seen buying them. i think *this* is what most people are thinking about when they dismiss fashion or think it a frivolous sin.

i live in berkeley/oakland; where most of the hippie kids on the street are trust fund babies trying not to look entitled. i think the ideal of a level playing field/american equality for all means that those who have money try not to look like they do.

whereas those who DON'T have money wear it in their bodies by displaying brand names, and in their teeth/"grillz", and in their cars booming by you.most black people born before the '80s (myself included) were raised to NEVER go out without ironing clothes and looking neat, the idea being that no matter how you hard you had to struggle you never let 'them' see you looking bad. it was a matter of pride, you know.

but then those street/working class fashions are co-opted later on, meant to convey...what? certainly not a sympathy with the underclass? and the working-class takes on the logos and nametags of the upper-class...

it seems like there are at least 4 things we're talking about in this thread:

1) the sense that the body is your canvas, and the muse of the artist who chooses the body as his/her inspiration - the sensuality of that process for maker and wearer;
2) how you see yourself, your level of vanity/self-consciousness/self-awareness;
3) who you choose to associate with, where you come from and where you might be going, especially regarding money- remember how Hannibal Lecter 'read' Clarisse by her clothing and her shoes? ;
4) i forgot what four was but i'm sure it was good...

i loved guy trebay's lines about "the role clothes play in human theater", and his observation of fashion shows "with their enforced passivity and aura of feminine spectatorship." i'm going to think about those....

 

[sarah13]

I also think it is about branding. How do you want other people to see you. What you wear, what you dirve, your cell phone etc. are outside ways to project who you are or who you want people to see your as. The poltician and the wallstreet banker wear suits to project power, the rocker wears something else to project their point of view or how they want you to visualise them. Even not caring about your clothing projects a certian deliberate image. Clothing and style is so powerful beacuse it is so portable.

 

[softgrey]

god- i just love the title of this article...
i never get tired of it...


it should be my mantra...

admit it...you love it...it matters...

...

 

[Spike413]

Wow. I can't believe this thread is 3 years old already.

I had a thought as I was re-reading some of the posts in here. I think it's safe to say that since this article was written fashion has become even more mainstream as a branch of pop culture. Does anyone feel like some of the changes that have taken place in fashion (the obsession with celebrity fashion ventures, numerous reality tv shows devoted to fashion/style, "expert" fashion commentators coming out of the woodwork in the blogosphere etc.), have actually made it harder for people to take those of us who really love fashion seriously? Is the sudden mainstream popularity of fashion and style actually hurting fashion's reputation as a serious art form?

I don't know what made me think of this, but once I did I realized that these days there are aspects of fashion that I can't help but roll my eyes at, and it made me wonder how people who don't have the highest regard for fashion to begin with see things.

Thoughts?

 

[softgrey]

Wow. I can't believe this thread is 3 years old already.

I had a thought as I was re-reading some of the posts in here. I think it's safe to say that since this article was written fashion has become even more mainstream as a branch of pop culture. Does anyone feel like some of the changes that have taken place in fashion (the obsession with celebrity fashion ventures, numerous reality tv shows devoted to fashion/style, "expert" fashion commentators coming out of the woodwork in the blogosphere etc.), have actually made it harder for people to take those of us who really love fashion seriously? Is the sudden mainstream popularity of fashion and style actually hurting fashion's reputation as a serious art form?

I don't know what made me think of this, but once I did I realized that these days there are aspects of fashion that I can't help but roll my eyes at, and it made me wonder how people who don't have the highest regard for fashion to begin with see things.

Thoughts?

most of these things are not things that i even consider fashion though...
kim kardashian's trampy dresses for BeBe are NOT in the same arena as anything shown on paris runways...
they are clothes...
NOT fashion...

and - imho - the same goes for most blogs and reality shows, etc...

so...
it may seem to the mainstream that these things are about fashion...
but i think those are people who don't understand what fashion really is...
and probably never will...
mostly because they don't care about it one bit...
at least not in terms of DESIGN...

they might care about looking 'pretty'...but that's about it...

what i do think it has done is make a LOT of people think that it would be GREAT to work in the fashion industry...


which has made a small and already overcrowded industry seem positively miniscule...
there simply isn't enough room for everyone...

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