Sans Makeup, S'il Vous Plaît (NYT)

[modelbehavior228]

I'd tend to disagree with it, based purely on my own personal experience. Skincare is neccessary maintenance. You find something that works well, and you stick with it. Makeup is for fun. It is for playing with, for experimenting with different sides of your personality--at least, that's the way I see it.

My skin care routine:
Wash morning & night with water & a softly scrubby washcloth. Green Cream after that (which more or less eradicates my need for moisturizers or really anything else), sunscreen on top of that, and my Zeno for the occasional pimple.

I have good enough skin that foundation is optional on any given day. I wear a sheer formula when I want to look particularly polished (say, going to church today), and that's usually accompanied by mascara and gloss. I defy any woman (french or no) to consider this overly made up.

However, I also have an absolute blast playing with makeup and experimenting with different looks (it's like dress-up) on occasion. I therefore have more makeup than the entire staff at Vogue. Therefore, you can see why the balance of "dollars spent" tips dramatically towards the makeup side.

On another subject:

I have to express the slight irritation I feel at the constant French-worship often found in US magazines--Vogue, Allure, and Elle seem to be the worst offenders. While I really like and admire much of their culture and customs, the part that bothers me is the inevitable comparison of refined, elegant frenchwomen to boorish, uncivilized american women. Does there need to be this one-upmanship?

Some time ago I read an article (in one of the above mentioned magazines) about french women and the lingerie they wear. The article stated quite firmly that french women prefer subtlety and the art of concealing--as opposed, of course, to american women and the vulgarity of the crotchless peekaboo trash we wear.

I then ventured onto the internet and used Google's language tools to find french lingerie websites. I was faced with the EXACT SAME tasteless hooker trash you can find on most of their american website counterparts. Surprise! I also found some websites with really lovely, elegant, tasteful stuff, but there didn't seem to be an overwhelmingly larger percentage in one country or the other.

Not all french women are thin, they're not all impeccably dressed with perfect makeupless skin, cultured tastes, fine education, and superior love-making skills. They have many of those, I'm sure--but then, so do we. Just like Canada, and South Africa, and Germany, and.... you get the point.

To try to elevate an entire country onto some bizarre, ambigious pedestal is just as silly as making vast, sweeping statements of ridicule about another.

 

[heaven]

this made my day

 

[marsmars]

this made my day

Me too.

 

[Couture_Tribe]

^^^ Finally!

 

[fashionista-ta]

You call that little? I think it's mostly the studio lights that made her makeup look less, and I do agree that it's so much less than american reporters.

Plus, just curious, not a race issue, but a cultural difference one, is she really that breathe taking beautiful in Caucasian aesthetics?

I'm Caucasian & I don't think she's breath-taking Reminds me of Celine Dion, who's French-Canadian ...

In the pix I found, she looks like she's wearing an absolute ton of studio-style foundation ... lots & lots of makeup, just in natural colors.

I guess it just all depends how much you value subtlety. On a daily basis I wear very little eye makeup, but often wear bold lipstick ... it just strikes me as an area where I can and should have fun, I don't feel in a competition to fool people (men?) that I'm not wearing any

 

[fashionista-ta]

^I think models are a good example of how too many products can ruin your skin! Getting ready for shoots and shows requires a lot of products and that builds up - factor in tiredness, travelling etc, it's not really a surprise their skin isn't really as good as it seems

That & something less than the best nutrition in many cases ... and cigarettes ...

 

[modelbehavior228]

^^I don't think she is that pretty at all. I can see her foundation "through" the camera that took the pic.

 

[luvmelots1983]

^Really? I dont think so at all. And I think she's gorrrrgeous.

 

[Jadee]

^Really? I dont think so at all. And I think she's gorrrrgeous.

She's not the type of beauty I like but to be fair those screecaps are hugely unflattering.She doesn't look like that at all.
The colours have been tweaked. That's why someone says I can see the foundation through the screen. Actually you can't. The person who took the caps played too much with contrast and colors. She looks less harsh and way more fresh than that. I don't find her stunning but she's prettier than that.

I don't understand why people picked a presenter to talk about the no make up look. Tv presenter have much more make up on than the average woman. I'm sure it's the same in the usa too.

I'm french and I don't get the way some aspects of my culture are worshipped at times. I wish this thread won't be a french against american thread. You don't have to bash one culture to make yourself feel better.

It would be better to focus on the wearing less/ no make up part of the article than arguing about how the french or american relate to make up because guess what french and american women come with different tastes. You have french women wearing too much make up and american women make up free. What is at the heart of the article is the relationship to make up. The culture thing is not that important. Let's drop the american vs french thing.

 

[modelbehavior228]

^oh, okay

 

[Whitelinen]

She's not the type of beauty I like but to be fair those screecaps are hugely unflattering.She doesn't look like that at all.
The colours have been tweaked. That's why someone says I can see the foundation through the screen. Actually you can't. The person who took the caps played too much with contrast and colors. She looks less harsh and way more fresh than that. I don't find her stunning but she's prettier than that.

I don't understand why people picked a presenter to talk about the no make up look. Tv presenter have much more make up on than the average woman. I'm sure it's the same in the usa too.

I'm french and I don't get the way some aspects of my culture are worshipped at times. I wish this thread won't be a french against american thread. You don't have to bash one culture to make yourself feel better.

It would be better to focus on the wearing less/ no make up part of the article than arguing about how the french or american relate to make up because guess what french and american women come with different tastes. You have french women wearing too much make up and american women make up free. What is at the heart of the article is the relationship to make up. The culture thing is not that important. Let's drop the american vs french thing.

Thank you for this The America vs. France was disturbing.

 

[fashionista-ta]

^ There is some reality to it, though, right? And it goes back quite a ways I think in terms of decades ... I think the difference is interesting to notice & discuss, it doesn't have to be done with animosity

 

[Whitelinen]

Would you like to share your opinion as you are an American and might be the best to tell about this (granted you've been to France)?

 

[fashionista-ta]

Would you like to share your opinion as you are an American and might be the best to tell about this (granted you've been to France)?

Sure, I kind of did above ... I haven't been to France, but I'm pretty clear on what the French ideal is, I think this thread as a whole explains it well.

My perspective is that I think we Americans very often go too far in "fixing" things, most particularly teeth (and don't get me started on plastic surgery). Lately I have seen this most obviously showing up in men, where their teeth are so white and so oddly "perfect" that they look waxy & pasted in (and I'm talking in real life)

It's getting to the point that it's really refreshing to see someone with an actual crooked tooth

In my own case, I have resisted Botox. I did try the tooth bleaching thing once, but I'd forgotten how sensitive my teeth are, and the pain was absolutely excruciating. I never had braces, my teeth more or less straightened out on their own, until my wisdom teeth (growing at a 90 degree angle) pushed them back out of whack. I was hoping they would self-correct again, but that hasn't happened. Nothing to go get Invisalign for

I frequently see adults with braces, some of whom I would have said had no vanity, and certainly no noticeable problem.

Now back to makeup, the primary topic ...

If you think back to the 40s/50s American woman, she had groomed eyebrows, powder, and brightish lipstick. I think that look really continues to this day, though of course there are others (the smoky eye/nude lip comes to mind).

I think French women probably are wearing somewhat less makeup than we do, but I think they just take great pride in being very subtle about it. I think it is a beautiful effect, but ... I guess I just don't see what's so all-fired great about subtlety Bright lipstick is fun, and why not?? But hey, I'm a Leo and I live in Texas, so ... I am subtle compared to lots of women here

 

[Whitelinen]

It's a matter of taste --- and I don't think the French "ideal woman" has anything against bright lipstick . The trick is to not overdo anything in your make-up so you won't end up looking like a Barbie.

But why do you think America has this kind of beauty ideal?

 

[fashionista-ta]

It's a matter of taste --- and I don't think the French "ideal woman" has anything against bright lipstick . The trick is to not overdo anything in your make-up so you won't end up looking like a Barbie.

But why do you think America has this kind of beauty ideal?

I don't know ... maybe it's because we have relatively little history & this suburban explosion that European countries don't have the space for. The notion of beauty is lost ... many of us don't appreciate the imperfection of old things. Many people want their stuff to look as though they bought it yesterday at Walmart, and I guess they extend that to themselves ...

I wonder if French women are more secure ... ?

 

[luvmelots1983]

Personally, I also think that in the US, we sometimes do things in extremes. We're always on two ends of the spectrum. For example, we're the country with the biggest problem in regards to obesity, but then you look at Hollywood, where tiny starlets are told to lose yet more weight. I heard today that Norah Jones, who's absolutely beautiful, was told to lose weight for a movie role. That's an example - when we want/have something, it's newer, better, bigger, etc. That's the American way, as I see it. I see it in terms of homes, space, etc. You won't find homes in Europe and Asia that are quite as sprawling (this is in general, obviously) as the average homes here. And in terms of Hollywood- take the Bollywood industry for example. They've got a ton of actresses, and while they're mostly slim, they're not blade-thin. Being super skinny is not an ideal in most other places, the way it is here. In Europe, while being slim is preferable, that's more the case because it's a way of life (in general, better eating habits and more exercise daily). So, there's less pressure on their actresses to lose weight (and therefore, go overboard with weight loss) because in general, they're relatively slim and fit already.
In terms of makeup, just apply the concepts to it. They've (Europeans and Asians) have had more time and history to get comfortable with themselves. Imperfections are ok, accepted and even desired because it defines who you are. Here in the US, we're really concerned with fitting in, making sure we're the best of the best.
P.S: I was born and raised in Singapore, lived in Scotland, and then moved to the US. So I feel like I have a fairly unbiased viewpoint. I've noticed the same pattern in Singapore. When I go back to visit, there's less emphasis on everyone fitting an ideal look. Rather, there's a lot of variety in how people look and there's a sense of comfort, almost, in the way they look at themselves.
I'm not sure I got my point across very eloquently, but oh well - stuff usually sounds a lot better in my head.

 

[crechebaby]

It would be better to focus on the wearing less/ no make up part of the article than arguing about how the french or american relate to make up because guess what french and american women come with different tastes. You have french women wearing too much make up and american women make up free. What is at the heart of the article is the relationship to make up. The culture thing is not that important. Let's drop the american vs french thing.

Yay! That's exactly what I was trying to get across.. you said it much more nicely, though

I do agree that alot of American ideals (particularly when it comes to beauty, the expectation of wealth, and our "work" ethic) seem incredibly extreme.. but that's a huge generalization.

In my opinion, alot of this comes from the fact that the US is a such a new country.

Because the US culture is so pervasive and unavoidable in our current global society, alot of us forget that this country began just over 200 years ago. When you compare that against most european countries it's really an incredibly small amount of time. Even when places weren't called France, or England, or Italy, most people living in those areas have ancestors from that general region stretching back for thousands of years. This is a huge amount of time for a culture as a whole to develop and refine itself, and really find its own personal identity.

The US has had an even harder time finding that personal identity, as well, because our people have no one (or two, or three) particular cultures or societies that we have evolved from, so to speak. The United States is an incredible mish-mash of people from all over the world. Every country on planet earth is represented in the descendents that have at some point in time settled in this country. With all of these cultures and identities (some of them hugely at odds with each other) occupying the same space, it's not hard to understand why our fledgling culture seems so extreme and out of place.

Alot of what people mistake for French cultural superiority is simply the refinement of having a culture that has existed in relatively the same state and area (revolutions notwithstanding) for hundreds of years.. and even before that as a part of Rome. There's a certain developmental "learning curve" that societies have to go through, and I think that's what the US is going through. Just consider MTV one of those growing pains

One last point..
Much of the foreign perspective of US culture is garnered from our media. Television, magazines, etc. What most of us understand, and what others need to understand, is that a very small percentage of the population controls the majority of our media. The handful of businesses that now run our film studios and major publishing companies came into their dominance over fifty years ago, and they excersize a relative monopoly over our media in this sense.

For instance, one company (Conde Nast) owns every one of these magazines:

W
Glamour
Allure
Self
Jane
Teen Vogue
GQ
Details
Men's Vogue
Architectural Digest
House & Garden
Brides
Modern Bride
Elegant Bride
Lucky
Domino
Cookie
Golf Digest
Golf World
Golf for Women
Vanity Fair
Gourmet
Bon Appétit
Condé Nast Traveler
concierge.com
Wired
Condé Nast Portfolio
The New Yorker

A company named Hearst owns pretty much all the rest.

Most of the lifestyle portrayed in magazines and movies and other US media is something that is so far removed from the day-to-day lives of the average citizen (I'm speaking here of the majority of middle americans, not solely of the more urban communities). The argument can be made that the media only promotes what the masses want to see anyway.. but the fact of the matter is that you can take pretty much anything and package it up very nicely, and if you can make it somehow seem glamorous or desireable in any way, you can sell it.

Anyway.. there end my thoughts for now (finally).
Just remember.. the culture that you see encapsulated in the media really does a very poor job of representing the American culture as a whole. And that culture is a very new one.. we're still figuring things out. So bear with us while we go through our shoulder pads, leg warmers, and hot pink lipstick phases. We'll find our identity eventually.

 

[Pinky*]

i believe more that because the US has a young history, that is their identity and that they aren't necessarily searching for one.

if you want to look at a region that is almost devoid of a unified culture, that would be canada. if not for their proximity to the US and more rural areas, there is practically no real cultural identity. if you had to pick an identity for them it would be acceptance.

i don't think the US wants to emulate another culture, but they are just looking for NEW things. they want to be different, similar to a teenager, a way of standing out. maybe they relate to other cultures in a romanticized way, since cultural history is romantically reminiscent itself, but they do this because as a whole, it's different, it's a new way of thinking to them.

americans in turn like the newest things; shiny big houses, etc. this is the biggest consumerist society, always buying new things. it was ford who first proposed the idea of adding model years to cars as to separate old from new and emphasize the value of the new, and surely he is a major proponent of american culture.

thus the obsession with youth, its relatable to their identity. like i mentioned earlier, europeans view maturity as womanly and desirable. in the US, women want to look young and cover up with cosmetics. fast and inexpensive.

anyway, i doubt the accuracy of representation in the statistics presented. it could just simply be a result of socially desirable responding. my 2 cents..

 

[Whitelinen]

I think you all might be right. What still confuses me, as in if we are talking about the obsession of "consumerism, perfection and youth" as American idelas, isn't there something wrong? If that is the "spirit of America", isn't it a little bit wrong? Or am I wrong because the ideals I have been taught to appreciate are European? It's just that I view the appreciation of different people and nature to be much higher here, and if the stereotypical American ideal would be the ideal here (sadly, it is getting more space here), I'd be scared. This is an interesting conversation.