Sans Makeup, S'il Vous Plaît (NYT)

[crechebaby]

i believe more that because the US has a young history, that is their identity and that they aren't necessarily searching for one.

if you want to look at a region that is almost devoid of a unified culture, that would be canada. if not for their proximity to the US and more rural areas, there is practically no real cultural identity. if you had to pick an identity for them it would be acceptance.

i don't think the US wants to emulate another culture, but they are just looking for NEW things. they want to be different, similar to a teenager, a way of standing out. maybe they relate to other cultures in a romanticized way, since cultural history is romantically reminiscent itself, but they do this because as a whole, it's different, it's a new way of thinking to them.

americans in turn like the newest things; shiny big houses, etc. this is the biggest consumerist society, always buying new things. it was ford who first proposed the idea of adding model years to cars as to separate old from new and emphasize the value of the new, and surely he is a major proponent of american culture.

thus the obsession with youth, its relatable to their identity. like i mentioned earlier, europeans view maturity as womanly and desirable. in the US, women want to look young and cover up with cosmetics. fast and inexpensive.

anyway, i doubt the accuracy of representation in the statistics presented. it could just simply be a result of socially desirable responding. my 2 cents..

This, once again, is a massively huge generalization--and not even an accurate one (I believe), which leads me to believe you missed the entire point of my post.

If that is the "spirit of America", isn't it a little bit wrong? Or am I wrong because the ideals I have been taught to appreciate are European?

This is NOT the spirit of America--they are ideals promoted by an incredibly small percentage of the US population. They are simply a very loud minority, unfortunately.

To give you an idea of the huge gap between the "reality" and values portrayed in our media and the actual statistical reality:

There are african americans in almost every single television show and movie. This is not a bad thing in any way, as I feel all racial groups should have an outlet of expression in the media. However, according to a 2005 census, african americans account for 13.4% of the US population. Hispanics have a much smaller representation in the media (although it has grown exponentially in the past 10 years), even though they are the most numerous racial minority in the US. And the asians get totally kicked to the curb.

Gays have a huge presence in the media, especially with the constant speculation about the sexual preferences of this or that entertainment celebrity. The city with the highest gay population in the US is San Fransisco, which boasts a whopping 8% of the population.

Conversely, Christianity is very deeply downplayed in the media--their representation in movies and television are used more for their novelty (Big Love, 7th Heaven, etc). But as of a July 2001 census, 74% of the US population described themselves as Christian.

Do you see where the discrepancy occurs? The media is not an accurate representation of "the American spirit" or the cultural ideals we are struggling toward (or away from, one might say). Unfortunately, this is often the only thing that those not native to the US are exposed to. It is our only ensign to the world, which I think is a complete tragedy.

Pinky, to say so blithely that you don't believe the US is even attempting to find a cultural identity is not only completely unquantifiable, I think it's also unfair to all of the people who have tried so hard to shape this country into something better. You only have to look back at the progress that has been made in the last 200 years. The racial issues in our culture (which EVERY society has addressed at some point in their history, this is not unique to the US) have progressed immensely from the state of our origin with our ideals of manifest destiny, wiping Native Americans from the face of the earth while supporting ourselves on african slave labor. Our gender issues have also progressed in much the same way. Women can vote now, did you know? The CWBR (Center for Women's Business Research) has estimated that nearly half of all privately owned businesses are owned (50% or more ownership) by women.

All of the changes I've listed above are more societal development than cultural development--but the two are connected. You can't really have one without the other. Societal change comes from people finding a unified voice in one issue or another, enough to create basic changes in the way our social infrastructure works. Cultural unity is a little harder to come to, but I think it's a lengthy process.

Are we where we want to (and should) be yet? No. Not yet. But when you line these things up against where we've come from, I think it's difficult to say that there is no attempt for progress.

If I would try to put my finger on what I think the "American" ideal is, I would say change. The lack of caste. My mother is from El Salvador. She came to the US at the age of 20, dirt poor, completely uneducated, no english language skills, knowing no one. She now has a master's degree in social work and is the head of her department, making twice what the average US male college graduate makes. This isn't the only country in which this can happen, but I think it's the only country that was founded almost solely on that principal. At the extremes (and there are always extremes) I think this dream of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps has evolved into an all-consuming desire for wealth. But you have to realize that these are just the extremes. The rest of us are content to be comfortable, to provide for our children, and knowing that our parents weren't just spouting nonsense when they told us that we could be anything we wanted to be.

 

[Pinky*]

what is the generalization thats so far from yours? you believe the US is searching for an identity while i think that they already have one. its a difference between believing ideals vs actions that shape a society. you believe the ideal, i believe actions. i don't think i missed your point, in fact i was trying to expand on it. if this offended your view of your culture, i deeply apologise

though you don't believe the actions are representative of the spirit of the society, i feel this shapes it and in turn the ideals. i also don't think that the US is that culturally representative -- to me, the US is a highly individualistic society, where each persons strengths are prized. that they are continually striving to become the best isn't surprising to me. and what they view as the best is what's new and exploratory. an identity of wanting whats best is admirable, is it not? each identity has its own qualities and liabilities.

to say striving for equality and justice is a determinent of cultural identity, i would say its more of a natural progression of society if anything else. like you said, its a mark of a growing civilization. the US already has an identity, perhaps its just not one they are entirely content with yet.

('women can vote', i'm not an you know . to be truthful, i was a little offended too when you said my views were unfounded. to say that the US doesn't appreciate youth markedly more than other cultures, and to discredit that as a factor in their societal schema surprised me. i think there is just a simple misunderstanding between us )

 

[Jadee]

This discussion, though interesting, seems off topic to me.We are no longer talking make up here. I suggest that a new thread should be created.

 

[crechebaby]

^^ (RE: Pinky)

It does sound like we are agreeing on general principle, just reaching that point from different angles. My interpretation of your statement that the US does not want to develop a cultural identity was that you believed Americans had no interest in becoming culturally better than they are now, which I believe to be false fundamentally.

I don't believe that trying to achieve equality and justice determines cultural identity, but it is, as you said, a mark of a growing civilization--we are growing, developing, etc. I suppose I was trying to refute a statement you did not intend to make.

The US is highly individualistic, of necessity. To speak in general terms of the majority.. French people live in France, German people live in Germany, Italian people live in Italy.. while there is interchange between these populations, the core majority remains the same. The US did not have that as a starting place. The US is filled with so many people from SO MANY backgrounds.. the individualism is going to be a given--which makes those generalizations we're talking about so hard to make.

The US culture for the most part is preoccupied with youth (although in general I belive this obsession is illustrated more vehemently in the media than it really is as a reflection of the US population as a whole), however, I don't believe it's the only country that is so preoccupied, or that the preoccupation so greatly exceeds that of other cultures. Modern Japanese culture is steeped in the idea of nubile, youthful female sexual appeal. This is why the childlike "Lolita" fashions are so in vogue. Examining japanese graphic novels and animated films as well, much of their female imagery is portrayed as very young.. down to their schoogirl outfits--enough so that it has become somewhat of a stereotype.

Personally, the current preoccupation with youth makes me want to roll my eyes. I'm going to feel awfully odd at 45 if I still look like I'm 20. I think I'd like to look 45. A very well maintained, polished, tasteful 45.. but 45 nonetheless. Fortunately, I really think it is more a cultural fad than it is the natural evolution of the American desire for wealth and new things. Look at our definitions of beauty and female attractiveness over the past few decades:

Right now the body ideal (once again, at least the one portrayed by the media) seems to be so painfully thin you rattle as you walk. This is a recent change. In the 90s, it was all about having rock hard abs like Madonna and Janet Jackson. Women first really started being encouraged to lift weights like the boys, without worrying that it would make them "bulky".

In the 80s, the ideal of feminine attractiveness seemed to be more power than youth. Looking back at the media from that time period, it was all about women climbing the corporate ladder right alongside the man. There was nothing sexier than the female CEO. Countless movies on that subject came out during this decade. You will also notice that the leading ladies in the movies were older and had a more mature "look" during the 80s.
This was the decade when women were discouraged from lifting weights or playing sports in favor of more feminine workout routines like aerobics... women were afraid that the more masculine workouts would make them look "bulky" and muscles were very un-sexy.

Yes, our media is obsessed with youth, and the people as a whole too (although I still believe there is less preoccupation in the general population than is represented in the media), but with any luck it will go out of vogue (soon, please, PLEASE)... and we will go back to appreciating the more more mature, experienced, sexy women, the way we did in the 50s and 60s. (I miss Bette Davis).

In any case.. I'm so sorry I offended you, Pinky. I'm starting to see that we're really arguing the same point... just from different angles. *hugs*

This discussion, though interesting, seems off topic to me.We are no longer talking make up here. I suggest that a new thread should be created.

No kidding. Um. Tic tac, anyone? *hears crickets*

 

[fashionista-ta]

I think you all might be right. What still confuses me, as in if we are talking about the obsession of "consumerism, perfection and youth" as American idelas, isn't there something wrong? If that is the "spirit of America", isn't it a little bit wrong? Or am I wrong because the ideals I have been taught to appreciate are European? It's just that I view the appreciation of different people and nature to be much higher here, and if the stereotypical American ideal would be the ideal here (sadly, it is getting more space here), I'd be scared. This is an interesting conversation.

To bring the conversation back to makeup I don't think we (the US) really have a problem there ... the vast majority of the women I see use makeup either in a reasonable way or not at all. Certainly our other issues make this one pale in comparison

In general, many of us think the country (and indeed the world) is on the wrong track, and many of us are speaking to that and working for change in a variety of ways (the "green" movement, historic preservation, political action, and much more ...).

Perhaps the reason we hear so much about French style is that fashion "elitists" (like fashion editors and, ahem, maybe some of us here) identify with those ideals more than the American ones, and want more of them in their own lives. See, for example, the discussion in our French Wardrobe thread ...

 

[Whitelinen]

^ Hah, you're right.

But back on to the subject of not wearing make-up or wearing a minimal amount of it. Tips, experiences?

 

[luvmelots1983]

So, this is what I noticed about myself. Like I mentioned before, while I'd like to go without it completely, in general, I'm just USED to the way I look with makeup on... without it, I dont feel much like "myself". I define the day more as in "the day I'm not wearing makeup" vs. the days when I am. The latter just feels much more normal.
Anyhow, to my point: yesterday I was in a rush to go to the mall, and didnt have time for my normal routine. (Whenever I wear makeup, it's tinted moisturizer/foundation first, and then blush, and then eye makeup). Anyhow, all I did yesterday was put on a little mascara and some chapstick and I was out the door. I noticed later how good I looked! Not to be vain or anything (not at all!)... what I mean is that, I looked better without foundation than when I have it on. I think I just got so used to wearing makeup (ie: foundation) that I feel naked without it. So, when I feel naked, the first thing I do is put on foundation.... I realized yesterday that when I feel *blah*, instead of putting on a full face of makeup, just a tiny "touch-up" really does do the trick.
I'm not sure I'm getting my point across: in short... some of us wear makeup to feel better/look better or because we feel odd without it on... change up your routine a little and just do really small additions (like gloss or mascara and nothing else).... that might do the trick, and you're wearing a whole lot less than you would otherwise.

 

[The_Ida]

But back on to the subject of not wearing make-up or wearing a minimal amount of it. Tips, experiences?

Absolutely NO foundation. At all. Only fluid concealer on spots and dark circles. An absolute minimal amount of setting powder. NO eyebrow pencil, brow mascara looks so much more natural. Eyelash curler and a tiny bit of mascara. For highlighting cheekbones, dab on moisturizer.

 

[Whitelinen]

Does anyone have experiences on just simply not wearing any make-up at all? I stopped using make-up a month or so ago, and so far I have been content. I need to get my skin more polished, but other than that I don't miss make-up.

Is here anyone else who does not use any make-up at all?

 

[Jadee]

Does anyone have experiences on just simply not wearing any make-up at all? I stopped using make-up a month or so ago, and so far I have been content. I need to get my skin more polished, but other than that I don't miss make-up.

Is here anyone else who does not use any make-up at all?

90% of the time I don't wear any make up.

I don't think I have any tips to give though. I follow a rather healthy diet and my skin has never been bad even in my teens. Well bar those 6 months when I lived in London. The pollution and a bad diet gave me some spots and a dull complexion. I also used some blush and mascara plus eyeliner when I lived there .Everything went to normal when I came back to my old regime when I was back home. I wash my face. Moisturise and that's all. Plus some sunscreen in the spring and summer.And sometimes I exfoliate. I've never smoked. I don't drink coffee. I avoid processed food as much as possible.
I'm not saying that my skin is 100% perfect though. I was born with dark circles. Still it doesn't bother me I don't feel the need to cover them.

luvmelots1983 once in a while, I like using make up. Sometimes like you I just use some blush. Sometimes I just use some eyeliner. Or eyeliner plus lipstick. I use it to enhance something or show my mood. I don't know if I'm clear. Put some blush if it's the spring and I feel fresh and happy for instance.
I don't like mascara but sometimes for a party I feel like having a full on make up face and then it's mascara, eyeliner, blush, lipstick.
Unlike you I'm not used to wearing make up and I 'feel' it when I do.Especially foundation. I feel dirty with foundation. Silly I know.
But I like make up. Particularly in films.I'm a sucker for old Hollywood glamour. The french can do glamour but noone does glamour better than the americans IMO.I watched 'Gentlemen Prefer Blondes' again last week and I love Marilyn Monroe and Jane Russell's style and make up! I would never try to emulate it but it's pure magic to me. Lots of people like to bash Hollywood and its fakeness but I love what the studio system created in terms of aesthetic especially in those times. All those glamourous fabricated femmes fatales.
I remember that a american girl spent one year in my school. I must have been 16 at the time. Her name was Anne. We were so baffled by two things,her sophistication and enthusiasm. Her hair and make up were perfect. We looked like little girls next to her. We went to a film festival with the school and I remember some of us around her bed while she was showing us her huge make up bag.Our reaction was "wow she's cool"
None of us tried to emulate her though. In fact we influenced her.She wore less make up and let her hair down. Literally. I think that she felt that she could in that environement.
One of my romanian friend had the same experience. She told me that at her university in Romania she has to wear make up and dress a certain way or she will be looked down.
She felt liberated here.


A thing I noticed about my culture is that in general being a natural beauty is the ideal.
It's all about trying to have a style that flatters you, enhance your assets.Sometimes the "I'm naturally beautiful" thing can go wrong too. Aesthetically speaking. I remember Lou Doillon (half english I know but raised in france) saying something along those lines 'i don't brush my hair and don't care about my looks at all. I want a man who finds me beautiful even when I look my worst'. I understand that stance but ya know ...it's not always pleasing to the eyes.


I don't think french women should be praised for their attitude towards make up because it's just a cultural thing. I'm not sure that french women are more confident than american women. Maybe they are ? american society seems to put more pressure on women than french society but I may be wrong about that. All I know is that even when my self esteem was at its lowest point and I felt I was the ugliest troll that ever lived I still didn't feel like I needed to wear some make up. But then again lots of women don't wear make up here.


This thread makes me want to wear some make up tonight. Damn when the last time was for new year's eve.I'm a cavewoman !

 

[luvmelots1983]

Jadee, thanks you for that post! I found it so incredibly informative and in a way, much more sure of myself. I'm tempted now to not wear makeup at all (total opposite reaction to what you had ). Seriously, Jadee, your examples regarding the American girl and Lou Doillon really did a lot to illuminate what it is I've been trying to understand about French culture regarding beauty - you said it perfectly: in your culture, it's all about being a natural beauty. I LOVE that.
Thanks again!

 

[quimby]

whitelinen--
i don't wear makeup most of the time. back in college, i did because i felt like i had to cover up my acne. i realize now that the foundation only made it worse.

for most of my adult life, i haven't worn makeup on any consistent basis. it's only now that i'm starting to discover how to even put on makeup, like blush or lipgloss, and even then i only wear them occassionally. i decided long ago that i never wanted to feel like i had to wear it every day, and it seemed that once you got into the routine, you couldn't stop without feeling naked or having everyone ask if you were sick.

i spend more time and money on skincare than makeup. i am religious about using moisturizer and sunscreen, and i'll pay extra for those things. (i use dr. hauschka because it seems to reduce my redness, and la roche posay becuase it has broad spectrum uva protection.) i also see a good dermatologist for the acne. i notice that drinking a lot of water helps, too. because of these preventative measures, i don't have to wear makeup.

anyway, i hope that was helpful to you and not just a ramble. i think i answered this thread earlier, but i elaborated this time.

 

[gruveechik]

right well - honestly if you have good skin or moderately good skin, i can see how one would be comfy with little/no makeup.

i USED to just wear a tinted moisturizer, mascara and lipgloss.. but after a horrid run-in with a dermatologist, i've acquired purple-blue under-eye shadows, which require CoverFX cream foundation (developed for burn-victims). i apply it in such a way that it looks natural - BUT - i require a lot more of the other products to make my whole face look natural.. and i blend and blend. People always think i wear little makeup - then i list off all the things i'm wearing and they're shocked!

So: i use a LOT of different makeup-products on my face, to look as though i'm not wearing a lot of makeup - in order to cover a problem that has pretty much disfigured me.

 

[quimby]

true, it's really hard not to want to cover up if you have bad skin. i know i did for about 2 years. and then i just decided it wasn't worth it, for me. the good skin came after that, though.

 

[pinksatin]

I apologize that I didn't read all the posts, maybe just like 3 pages, but this thread and the articles are interesting. I don't agree though that the "no makeup look" is necessarily better though. Personally I LOVE makeup. Buying it, trying it experimenting. It's fun. Making myself up is part of my ritual. It's almost meditative. I am comfortable going around with no make up too though. If I am only going to the supermarket or to workout or whatever then I don't bother of course and I still feel fine. It's not that I need to wear makeup. I just enjoy it. And yes usually I strive for a natural look (and succeed) but every so often I'll bust out with a deep crimson lipstick, or shimmery lavendar pink gloss or I'll go through a phase of wearing liquid eyeliner everday for a month. I like to have fun with makeup but I don't think I'm gaudy or garish. It's always one feature at a time if I want to have fun and use stong color or a sparkley thing(only for nighttime).

 

[modelbehavior228]

I still say anyone brave enough to go out w/o makeup is a true hero for mankind lol

 

[Couture_Tribe]

I apologize that I didn't read all the posts, maybe just like 3 pages, but this thread and the articles are interesting. I don't agree though that the "no makeup look" is necessarily better though. Personally I LOVE makeup. Buying it, trying it experimenting. It's fun. Making myself up is part of my ritual. It's almost meditative. I am comfortable going around with no make up too though. If I am only going to the supermarket or to workout or whatever then I don't bother of course and I still feel fine. It's not that I need to wear makeup. I just enjoy it. And yes usually I strive for a natural look (and succeed) but every so often I'll bust out with a deep crimson lipstick, or shimmery lavendar pink gloss or I'll go through a phase of wearing liquid eyeliner everday for a month. I like to have fun with makeup but I don't think I'm gaudy or garish. It's always one feature at a time if I want to have fun and use stong color or a sparkley thing(only for nighttime).

Don't worry, I am EXACTLY the same as you

makeup is fun, just like clothes

 

[luvmelots1983]

^ I agree, makeup is fun. I practically own stock in MAC and spend half my life searching for the right mascara. I think what I mean by desiring that "no makeup look" is not abandoning makeup altogether, but getting to the point where I dont feel I need it. I'd like to get that naked, perfect look for everyday, without depending on too many products... and, of course, when I feel like it, go crazy with the colors I'll keep in a drawer.

 

[The_Ida]

^You might wanna try The Body Shop's Tinted Glow Enhancer. It does excactly what it says. You dab the tiniest amount on, and you look like you have no pores or imperfections at all.

 

[Whitelinen]

^ How much is it?