A Materialistic Society?

[meme527]

We now even have cosumerism where people pretend that they aren't materialistic, because they are anti-label or whatever. Someone here buying Ann Dem or CCP is just as bad as those people mocked in the Nouveau Riche thread for buying LV monograms in crazy colours. The friends of either of these people will approve and compliment them. The buyers will feel good, in both the compliments, and that they like the way they dress.

i don't see it this way.

i think that there are people who are drawn to certain designers because they like the design - something in the way tha person approaches clothing appeals to their senses. if it turns out that there is a group of like-minded people, be they friends or fashion elite, who also like thatt designer or tha aethetic, it doesn't necessarily mean the person is dressing to please anyone else or to gain the acceptance of a particular crowd. and it doesn't mean that they AREN'T dressing to please the crowd either.

but, because the staus of brands like chanel and dior and LV is so much higher, and people use conspicuous consumerism to impress others, it's more likely that they will use those status-symbols in this way, and follow slavishly to the demands of the market.

i look at it as dressing from the *outside in*, as opoosed to dressing from the *inside out*.

There's even some argument (I'm not saying its a good one though...) that if someone buys a fake LV its better than buying CCP. At least they aren't putting such a huge amount of money into something so materialistic, and generally the vendor is going to be a poor market salesman, and its going to be made in a poorer Asian economy (where the people, do actually welcome even sweatshop labour, its better than nothing after all!), so it benefits the poor. Whereas buying the CCP/Ann Dem benefits a big department store thats already hugely rich, and the rest of the money goes to some Belgian who's poofing around all day making up new words to describe just how pretentious he is.

i don't think this is a good argument either!

in the twenty-first century, it's barbaric to allow people to work in factories for 12 + hour days, with little access to necessities like food, water, bathrooms, sunshine and fresh air, hazardous conditions and no health benefits, not to mention lack of fair compensation, time off, maternity leave, freedom from sexual harassment....to say that slave labor is better than nothing is to say no more than that living is better than dying.

yours truly, big mama meme

 

[Lena]

i agree with meme, slave labour is good only for the western society.. they make so much money out of this, if there wasnt for the 'third world' and China, westerners would be living with much less.. imagine the cost of living if all goods were locally made (EU or USA) we probably wouldnt be able to afford much.. our economy is based on slavery products

 

[AlexN]

Paul, we seem to be speaking on a different wavelength here. There is nothing wrong with buying anything if you love it and think it's beautiful. If someone buys a ton of LV simply because they love it, that's great. But there are more people out there who would buy anything from LV for the logo, no matter how ugly it is. That is a fact. Why do you think there are items on the market like Gucci ice cube trays? Do you think people buy them because they're beautiful, and the ice cubes they produce brings tears of joy to their eyes? Sure there are probably some people who would buy CCP for the sole reason that it's expensive, but I assure you this is a very small number of people, especially since CCP is barely even available to begin with. If someone wants to show the world how much money they have in the most obvious way possible, are they going to buy a logo'd LV purse, or an old-looking, wrinkled coat from CCP that, to the non fashion-oriented eye, looks as if it could have been found in a dumpster?

 

[rhiannonmars]

^ prices of goods might not raise if we had local labor.Mmaybe in an ideal world, the higger ups would just not pay themselves as much! (I guess I can't kid myself, that would never happen)

 

[Lena]

its all in the wages .. prices of goods would not be able to be affordable, wages would need to go up, the economy would collapse

 

[Paullw]

I was only stating the truth, that in many areas they do welcome the work. It gives them barely enough to live, rather than not enough to live. Many of the workers have decided that they would rather have that than nothing, its barbaric and it shouldn't be allowed, but without it they starve.

 

[shoexgal]

Does anyone ever stop to think how many products one uses before starting their day...I can count about ten..shampoo, conditioner, blush, foundation, lipgloss, eyeshadow, perfume, you get the picture...

on another note, why are we all buying so much stuff that is useless to us anyway? We are finding no solace in the stuff we buy because the real problem is that stuff will never tell us who we really are..only we can do that

 

[meme527]

woo, lots of typos in my last message! i went past my six-minute limit in editing it so i'm going to add this:

i'd rather buy from a pretentious belgian or a smaller store or a local underground designer or a company like edun than support some all powerful company that believes it's good business to "move on" if they cannot exploit land and resources and human beings in any way they see fit. and i think that if enough consumers feel they same way, they will see that it is ultimately better business to treat workers decently.

i think we forget, consumers drive the market, not the other way around.

 

[Paullw]

Paul, we seem to be speaking on a different wavelength here. There is nothing wrong with buying anything if you love it and think it's beautiful. If someone buys a ton of LV simply because they love it, that's great. But there are more people out there who would buy anything from LV for the logo, no matter how ugly it is. That is a fact. Why do you think there are items on the market like Gucci ice cube trays? Do you think people buy them because they're beautiful, and the ice cubes they produce brings tears of joy to their eyes? Sure there are probably some people who would buy CCP for the sole reason that it's expensive, but I assure you this is a very small number of people, especially since CCP is barely even available to begin with. If someone wants to show the world how much money they have in the most obvious way possible, are they going to buy a logo'd LV purse, or an old-looking, wrinkled coat from CCP that, to the non fashion-oriented eye, looks as if it could have been found in a dumpster?

Yeah, so everyone has their own reasons, but why is one better than the other? In the end, we're all just buying something that we want.

 

[AlexN]

Yeah, so everyone has their own reasons, but why is one better than the other? In the end, we're all just buying something that we want.

It's not that simple. I quit...

 

[travolta]

Why do you think there are items on the market like Gucci ice cube trays? Do you think people buy them because they're beautiful, and the ice cubes they produce brings tears of joy to their eyes?

nice imagery, alex


i do agree w/ meme, and the previous point paul made -- nothing is absolute.


paul, i didn't read the entirety of the articles i posted, so i'm trying to get through them now. once i have done so i'll try to post a response.

 

[tott]

i agree with meme, slave labour is good only for the western society.. they make so much money out of this, if there wasnt for the 'third world' and China, westerners would be living with much less.. imagine the cost of living if all goods were locally made (EU or USA) we probably wouldnt be able to afford much.. our economy is based on slavery products

Yes, we've gotten used to buying a new look every season and throwing it away when we get bored... Before there was cheap imports, when people were buying locally made products, people bought stuff that would last for seasons, not just one season.

I think "style" as opposed to "fashion" was more important, and that's what I'd like to see more of...

 

[meme527]

I was only stating the truth, that in many areas they do welcome the work. It gives them barely enough to live, rather than not enough to live. Many of the workers have decided that they would rather have that than nothing, its barbaric and it shouldn't be allowed, but without it they starve.

like i said, i agree with you - living IS better than dying.

the economy of the united states was built upon slave labor (and, literally, upon stolen land). but slavery was abolished in the united states, and thoughout the americas, in part because it was believed that it was a barbaric practice. now the western world at large has this kind of slave/owner relationship to the third world, with a kind of moving feast going on....

why is it okay for some to be nearly starving, while others actually are starving, and if you don't let the corporations do what they want they will go to those places where people are starving and take their slave wages with them, leaving YOU to starve....i guess it's all okay as long as it is happening to someone else?

oh, well, we were talking about fashion right?

carrying on, meme

 

[travolta]

^ no thanks for posting, meme. there are a few different threads trying to determine and uncover inherent style, trends, fashion etc...and ultimately if you don't bring up the
'macrocosm' the root of it all, consumer society, the nuts and bolts which keeps us on 'cloud nine' then it's all pretty pointless to even try to understand isn't it?

 

[Paullw]

I know its not that simple, but it does as you said come to that when you get away from some of the details. Its probably oversimplification of fashion for a fashion forum, but if you take an outsider, they just see that you've bought a really expensive piece of clothing either way. Neither does the job that differently to a sack with holes in it.

Its a very extreme view but you must see the point that from a view outside of fashion, from the view of the poorest, who are most taken advantage of, you are just buying something, and someone else is making a profit, because you're willing to buy it.

The point is, I guess, that its just an item that you don't need, whether its LV, CCP, a £2000 mountain bike or a Ferrari.

Sorry, my parents are conservationists, so I tend to go off on one a bit when this sort of subject comes up.

 

[meme527]

^ no thanks for posting, meme. there are a few different threads trying to determine and uncover inherent style, trends, fashion etc...and ultimately if you don't bring up the
'macrocosm' the root of it all, consumer society, the nuts and bolts which keeps us on 'cloud nine' then it's all pretty pointless to even try to understand isn't it?

*i* think so, yeah, because it is always hard for me to see the trees if i can't at least get a picture of the forest - but i am that way about everything. i can see how it might not be that way for some, which is fine.

it just would be good if we had a system where you can indulge in whatever frivolous thing to your heart's content and not have someone else (or the planet's resources) suffer because of it. then i think it really would be more of just a matter of style..... wouldn't THAT be sweet!?

 

[meme527]

Sorry, my parents are conservationists, so I tend to go off on one a bit when this sort of subject comes up.

no need to apologize, pauliw!!!! i truly appreciate the difference in points of view that you find here. even though the overall subject is fashion, people see things differently, and i think that is a good enjoyable thing, one that i learn a lot from

 

[faust]

Long ago as a teenager, I started dressing to reflect my inner self. I did not have that many friends, and the friends I had, didn't dress *just* like me. I really felt we were individuals, expressing ourselves, but relating to each other none the less. It is the same now. I have friends all over who have different tastes in style than me, but I still relate to them. I don't want such and such item, just because they have it. It is impossible to take consumerism out of regular conversation because everything is bought and sold, music, books, clothes, cars, houses, etc. Geeze, even religion these days has a price.

Clothes to me do reflect a persons tastes, but not their inner being. (if they are a good, kind person, understanding, open minded, etc) I feel like clothes are an art form. If you want to take my clothes away from me, then you take away the beauty I want to have in my world. I judge that beauty only by my own standards, not someone elses. I am choosing not to follow "society" and "media". I am not buying a Balenciaga or Chloe bag to fill a void. They do not fit my taste, so I do not need them. I do not want a Mercedes, BMW or Ferrari because everyone in Beverly Hills has one(or three!). They are not my idea of beauty. I do want a nice new clean car though. It could be a VW, or an Audi. The $$$ amount is not the selling point, it is the beauty, quality and reliability.

Luxury goods can sell you quality and reliabliity. I will have my Chanel bags for my life time. I have no doubt they will hold up. Yes, Chanel may be selling me into an idea of luxury. Everyone is trying to sell us into this now to make us feel better about ourselves. If you have "X" brand, you are "rich", and being "rich" is a validation to people with low self esteems self worth.

Now, I have no doubt alot of us here are very secure in themselves. At any income level, you love yourself and buy with in your means. I can not sit here and tell a doctor or lawyer that they are greedy for buying an expensive house with in their means because other people in the world are starving. I think it is great to experience the beauty and leisure riches can offer. I really can not talk bad even about people who buy a new dress for every day of the year. It is great to absorb all the world has to offer. I think you just have to come to a point in your life where material things are not all that matter, people matter too! You will have kids and a husband, and be willing to sacrafice everything for them. You will relate to people you never thought you would, despite what they have.

Yes, at times I feel sad becuase I can not have ANOTHER purse. I think other interests and hobbies keep your life at a slower pace. (reading, watching movies, TV, computers, games, dinner parties) You just take one day at a time and have to always reflect and be appreciative you have what you do have!! Do it, because someday, you, or your husband might loose their jobs. Your property value could go down, you could loose in your investments. It's not worth the stress and sadness to attach yourselves to material things which come and go!

very well said, thank you

 

[twilekboy]

Thanks for the welcome Lena, I'm actually guilty of being a longtime lurker. This topic, however, has become very important to me in the past year...

Thank you so much meme527 for the excellent link. Here is an article from Rolling Stone (of all places) that I found to be rather engaging:

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/_/id/7203633?rnd=1118188985570&has-player=unknown

Actually, I'm familiar with some people who have become quite vocal about consumption directly because they read the article.

In regards to how this thread has progressed, its all of huge interest because this past year, I was a student at a highly regarded (only within Canada, that is) fashion school. To make it very short and to the point, the learning experience was not one I expected... I was absolutely disgusted by (the portrayal I recieved of) the industry and its machinations, and have decided not to return next year and give up my hard-won scholarship. I've been doing alot of "soul searching" since. It was in fact, this thread (which I mistakenly found) that has compelled me to return to the Fashionspot after having stopped a couple months ago due to my disillusionment.

It is, I must say, comforting to know that some of the issues I've dealt with recently are also being thought about by others of similar interest.

 

[travolta]

thanks for posting twilekboy. i feel your pain, because i'm follow fashion so closely, and spend an almost ? unhealthy amount of time of the fashion spot! but it is the only place i can go to speak about this 'passion' of mine, because of my friends are pretty anti-fashion to a degree, or not anti- fashion, but they are more the type to get their clothing out of a dumpster, and their jobs don't require them to wear 'smart' suits or anything of that nature, but i assure you, they got great taste...so i'm a bit of a contradiction or a hypocrite depending on how you see it i guess. this is going to turn into a bit of a biography, so i hope it's ok, but i studied product design, and i absolutely hate to shop! weird huh? i feel as if i'm constantly doing soul searching, because i really want to do something w/ marketing , but everything i know screams well..no! i guess i would like to attempt something that the guy in the link i posted is doing: beating the system, subverting it by closely working w/ it? undermining it...i'm not sure how successful that will be. anyways, these are things on my mind as well.