Celine F/W 2022.23 Paris

[Uemarasan]

And you have showed everyone that you are one dirty little pig .


Thank you for this. Admitting to this effectively puts everything you have said, and will say, under increased scrutiny by everyone here now. It was so easy to bait you, and by association the rest of the people who share and support your sentiments, into showing everyone your true colours.


Calling any designer's work as garbage, without anything to substantiate that statement, is unfair criticism. You've shifted from the idea of fair criticisms to valid criticisms, which is no different than saying that whatever everyone says is valid because it is "their truth". Thank you for helping me expose, now without a shred of doubt, how everything you say is based on an undercurrent of bitterness and bias against Hedi. You've effectively planted a seed of doubt in everyone's mind on how much truth, and value, is actually in your opinions. Now everything you, and by extension the people who share and support your sentiments, say will be subject to a higher burden of proof in order to be taken seriously.

I’m the dirtiest. Oink oink.

It’s easy, really: all valid criticism is fair criticism.

You talk about bias and yet the mirror seems so far away from your face.

Oh no! Humans on these forums have biases against certain designers!

Oh no! I don’t think the artist often has anything meaningful to say about his or her own work!

Oh no! Seeds of doubt!

I’m done for.

 

[Kimihiro]

You know, it frustrates me a tad why Hedi would prefer to reference the classic Chanel tweed jacket just too close to its inspiration, rather than this superior cadet version he offered for Dior Homme, of which he could have really made it all his own. Not to mention how well it would do to reintroduce such an iconic design to the Celine line— for both women and men:

vogue.com

Out of all his Dior collection I don’t know why I love this the most. It felt like a Chanel audition. It was just very good menswear.

Mr. Slimane doesn’t seem to be that interested anymore in pushing boundaries. That’s okay, it might be honest but it doesn’t excuse him from criticisms. Particularly when he showed promise before.

 

[volft]

Mr. Slimane doesn’t seem to be that interested anymore in pushing boundaries. That’s okay, it might be honest but it doesn’t excuse him from criticisms. Particularly when he showed promise before.

Hedi seems more interested in hyperrealism than pushing boundaries since he left Dior. He talks about losing interest of the conceptual formalism approach he had at Dior, and wanting to approach an "analog" design that focuses on realism, and effortlessness. He didn't like how his Dior Homme aesthetic was contrived, and I'm guessing it realized it wasn't that believable.

Since my years at Dior, and starting with the “Glam rock” collection in 2005, I started to doubt coordination and the conceptual formalism I was into for seven years. Following my photography, and rock portrait photography in particular, I was looking for imperfections, flaws or vulnerabilities translated into an “analog” design. The styling principles were about realism, and quirky wit. I was trying to escape a contrived aestheticism, and rather insist on personal style. The magpie styling for the Glam show, referring to the strong indie rock scene emerging in London, was precisely my personal style and organic to the generation I was depicting. The characters in my show were all authentic individuals, and mostly musicians of the English scene, street cast with a strong personal sense of style. The street was somehow informing the fashion, and I transposed this effortless wardrobe, within the rules of couture, the savoir-faire of the Parisian ateliers. The clothes were a “trompe l’oeil” of iconic street pieces, now impeccably made. You needed to be up close to understand most of it was embroidered by hand, or extremely luxurious, but without the gloss, the perception of new. Think about Georges Brummel, and effortlessness, or the Duke of Wellington, and the relation to the new. The necessity of the quality or sophistication of the execution was everything to those iconic street items.

Hedi seems like he wanted to shift the perception of what luxury is, and change the perception of couture. I think the hyperrealism really worked for Saint Laurent's ready-to-wear line, because Hedi was going to also have a couture division set up.

I resumed this idea at Saint Laurent, starting with the men’s and women’s Grunge collections. Again, this current interpretation of grunge was relating to a present musical movement, and the attitude of this generation rather than historicism. A shift was probably needed at the time to question a predictable perception of luxury, and move forward with a laid back effortless approach of couture. I also always knew that I would balance the sense of hyperrealism at Saint Laurent with the perspective of the couture to come. It was going back precisely to the message of Yves, when he launched “Saint Laurent Rive Gauche,“ providing this is 50 years after, and the street is different.

I think it is worth discussing Hedi's philosophy on analog design, realism, and effortlessness in fashion.

 

[disco54]

This screams to me, I am a rich 19 year old art student at the Sorbonne and my sole purpose is to wear Celine, wear shades, and looked perpetually constipated for the rest of my life.

 

[volft]

This screams to me, I am a rich 19 year old art student at the Sorbonne and my sole purpose is to wear Celine, wear shades, and looked perpetually constipated for the rest of my life.

The fw22 Celine girl really does feel a lot more serious, like they're on a mission. "Don't talk to me, I'm busy" vibes. It is interesting that this can be seen negatively when women are portrayed this way. I suspect it stems from stereotyped gender roles and expectations. I don't think there would be much complaint from Celine Homme models having this vibe.

 

[tricotineacetat]

I

Hedi seems more interested in hyperrealism than pushing boundaries since he left Dior. He talks about losing interest of the conceptual formalism approach he had at Dior, and wanting to approach an "analog" design that focuses on realism, and effortlessness. He didn't like how his Dior Homme aesthetic was contrived, and I'm guessing it realized it wasn't that believable.



Hedi seems like he wanted to shift the perception of what luxury is, and change the perception of couture. I think the hyperrealism really worked for Saint Laurent's ready-to-wear line, because Hedi was going to also have a couture division set up.


I think it is worth discussing Hedi's philosophy on analog design, realism, and effortlessness in fashion.

Well, judging from the fact that his Dior Homme collections already served the perfectly acceptable classic trenches, pea coats and tailoring separates, that a lot of early fans still have in their wardrobes today, it's a pragmatic reality that the iterations later issued at Saint Laurent and Celine very often don't provide much merit for another purchase. While of course there will always be new customers enticed to buy these staples, the sad truth is that the existing clients will look with a much more critical eye on any new collection issued by him, wondering what are the actual news for them to buy another piece.

I will not go as far as to say that nothing ever changed and I think the latest men's winter collection provided a few new nice proportions, mainly in the bomber jacket department, but then most of those jackets upon seeing their backs were ruined with yet another rhinestoned or grommeted logo or slogan that raise the question just how 'as if these pieces always existed' these pieces really are. What was great about his Dior Homme pieces was that they were easily identifiable as Hedi Slimane designs, relying entirely on the cut and not on silly brandings for people who want to show off they are wearing a Celine jacket.

 

[tricotineacetat]

I will make an example based on his Celine collections so far:

Moving on from Saint Laurent, the news in his men's collections was a more loose-cut double breasted suit with an ankle length, pleated trouser. The propotions on said suit felt fresh and new, and he served them in almost all collections, with pinstripes, in various shades of grey flannel and basic black. I would assume until today, those suits can be had in the shop and they became part of the permanent collection for good reason. But when you keep showing those suits on the runway, you are not exactly giving the dedicated fan a new proposition. He will buy one, at maximum two of those suits. But there is no need to show them on the runway another time if it remains exactly the same. At least you have to keep proposing new silhouettes, and I simply think there are not enough news per each season.

The same can be said about the collarless 'chasseur' jackets he set up as staples in the womenswear. The runway saw all shades of neutrals with tonal braiding and gold buttons. The silhouettes and details hardly changed, so again, seeing yet another one on the runway feels like a Déjà-vu.

For a veteran designer like Hedi Slimane, I expect that he can at this point create those classics with an ease that hardly challenges him. In a way, he has remained in his comfort zone and got quite narrow in his imagination what could become a classic item that looks as if it ever existed in somebody's wardrobe.

If and when he will switch his agenda next remains to be seen, but the status quo he is serving at the moment is probably the least 'creative' in his grander body-of-work, befitting the times the luxury goods industry is in today, next to designers like Maria Grazia Chiuri, Virginie Viard etc. providing sellable, but not very imaginative fashion.

 

[tricotineacetat]

Another thing that baffles me until today: How is it possible that with all the resources at his finger tips, that his dressmaking skills haven't improved since the very beginning of his womenswear design at Saint Laurent, considering that he keeps insisting on offering a couture line? It shouldn't prove so difficult for LVMH to find him a womenswear designer capable to work under his direct brief with the moulage and dressmaking skills that can bring a bit more finess to his dressmaking.

 

[volft]

Well, judging from the fact that his Dior Homme collections already served the perfectly acceptable classic trenches, pea coats and tailoring separates, that a lot of early fans still have in their wardrobes today, it's a pragmatic reality that the iterations later issued at Saint Laurent and Celine very often don't provide much merit for another purchase.

I empathize with the Dior Homme fans who filled their wardrobe with classic pieces from his Dior Homme collections. I don't think they should purchase another version from Saint Laurent or Celine if they already have that part of their wardrobe handled.

While of course there will always be new customers enticed to buy these staples, the sad truth is that the existing clients will look with a much more critical eye on any new collection issued by him, wondering what are the actual news for them to buy another piece.

This is where I think Hedi is focused on. He is designing for new customers than designing for the customer that found him at Dior Homme, or Saint Laurent.

I've been jaded for so long that Hedi will never return to fw13 that I'm numb at this point. Although I know not much of anything released post-fw13 is for me, I choose to observe his work from afar to try to more objectively analyze what Hedi is doing. I'm more interested in Hedi as a creative director, who is building an empire, than as a designer who will be creating pieces for me.

I will not go as far as to say that nothing ever changed and I think the latest men's winter collection provided a few new nice proportions, mainly in the bomber jacket department, but then most of those jackets upon seeing their backs were ruined with yet another rhinestoned or grommeted logo or slogan that raise the question just how 'as if these pieces always existed' these pieces really are.

I'm not interested in any Dior/Saint Laurent/Celine branded pieces at all. I do not want to be a walking advertisement for free. I might want an Hedi branded piece, but, it would only be on a t-shirt. I like to be more understated and look more grown up most of the time.

I do think the slogans are interesting since they're art collaborations with artists. I think those pieces are a way for Hedi to combine his love for art and subversive punk elements with those jackets with slogans on their back. It is interesting looking at the artists that Hedi chooses to collaborate with. It adds a playful facet to the design, but I'm not interested in looking playful. I think the embellished pieces resonates more with the average luxury consumer than the plain pieces. I suspect it is easier for them to justify paying retail for a more special piece than a more understated piece, which is a shame.

What was great about his Dior Homme pieces was that they were easily identifiable as Hedi Slimane designs, relying entirely on the cut and not on silly brandings for people who want to show off they are wearing a Celine jacket.

I personally see that the heavily identifiable factor of his designs as a flaw. I really do not like the scar stitches at all. The pieces reveals a certain insecurity, and needing people to know it is a designer piece. I'm personally into pieces that don't look like they're designer pieces at all, but I recognize that I'm probably in the minority amongst people who like "fashion" enough to want to post about it.

Moving on from Saint Laurent, the news in his men's collections was a more loose-cut double breasted suit with an ankle length, pleated trouser. The propotions on said suit felt fresh and new, and he served them in almost all collections, with pinstripes, in various shades of grey flannel and basic black.

I actually found the fw19 silhouette with the cropped wide pants with combat boots to feel very fresh for Hedi. It was something Hedi hasn't shown before.

I'm glad he continued this silhouette with fw21's Teen Knight Poem collection:

But when you keep showing those suits on the runway, you are not exactly giving the dedicated fan a new proposition. He will buy one, at maximum two of those suits. But there is no need to show them on the runway another time if it remains exactly the same. At least you have to keep proposing new silhouettes, and I simply think there are not enough news per each season.

I don't think Hedi is intending for the dedicated fan to be buying the same suit over and over again. He might be more interested in either having that fan expand his wardrobe for more pieces than the classic pieces, or reach out to more, and younger, consumers and get them to pick up the classic pieces.

For a veteran designer like Hedi Slimane, I expect that he can at this point create those classics with an ease that hardly challenges him. In a way, he has remained in his comfort zone and got quite narrow in his imagination what could become a classic item that looks as if it ever existed in somebody's wardrobe.

I wonder if part of the repetition strategy is to give confidence to consumers that what they're offering is indeed timeless and iconic worthy pieces to "invest in" by paying retail for them. One thing I really thought was smart was when Hedi was showcasing, along with new footwear designs, the Jacno, Berlin, and Ranger models for multiple seasons on the runway. This emphasized their versatility and relevance to me, and showed that Hedi really believed in them. I feel like he's basically building a brand from scratch after his reboot of Celine, and he is swimming upstream trying to both convey what Celine means, and why it is worth being a part of.

If and when he will switch his agenda next remains to be seen, but the status quo he is serving at the moment is probably the least 'creative' in his grander body-of-work, befitting the times the luxury goods industry is in today, next to designers like Maria Grazia Chiuri, Virginie Viard etc. providing sellable, but not very imaginative fashion.

I'm interested in Hedi less as a clothing designer, but more as a creative director. I'm curious about Hedi's process in brand building almost from scratch. I want to see Hedi build an empire that will rival Dior, Chanel, and Hermès.

Another thing that baffles me until today: How is it possible that with all the resources at his finger tips, that his dressmaking skills haven't improved since the very beginning of his womenswear design at Saint Laurent, considering that he keeps insisting on offering a couture line? It shouldn't prove so difficult for LVMH to find him a womenswear designer capable to work under his direct brief with the moulage and dressmaking skills that can bring a bit more finess to his dressmaking.

I'm actually a fan of his dresses and think they look so sexy on women. They just look good, without looking like they're trying too hard, and I find that more important than whatever intricate design techniques are, or aren't, present. Then again, I'm not educated on the details of couture and dress making, and I might not even be able to understand the finesse that Hedi's designs are missing.

 

[disco54]

The fw22 Celine girl really does feel a lot more serious, like they're on a mission. "Don't talk to me, I'm busy" vibes. It is interesting that this can be seen negatively when women are portrayed this way. I suspect it stems from stereotyped gender roles and expectations. I don't think there would be much complaint from Celine Homme models having this vibe.

This has nothing to do with gender and it is not a complaint. Regardless I am sure this will sell very well to East Asian customers. I have yet to see any knockout collection from Hedi at Celine, yes that Celine which had Phoebe Philo giving out iconic collections season after season, in that regard Hedi has failed to deliver.

The only mission they are on is to Starbucks for a latte.

 

[Phuel]

^^^ Absolutely.

Phoebe’s Celine— and her Chloe (because it was hers and not Stella’s) was very good, etc etc. She designed clothes that professional women in the creative industry coveted. However, the presentations and campaigns were abysmally flat and I can’t stand Juergen’s pranking; almost as if she were trolling the industry. Can’t think of a single presentation nor campaign of her Chloe that stood out if my life depended on it. And her only ever designing for women, leaves her at a disadvantage since menswear is equally as important to me— and I believe, many others as well. Thus her and Hedi are very different. I admire Phoebe for designing solid fashions for women, but since other than her strong design sensibility, there nothing else impressive about her branding of Celine, I find Hedi inspiration for his strict vision of fashion— down to the typography that’s on a label with him. And that’s more creatively potent than just a very well designed piece of clothing,

 

[Fulton St Critique]

^^^ Absolutely.

Phoebe’s Celine— and her Chloe (because it was hers and not Stella’s) was very good, etc etc. She designed clothes that professional women in the creative industry coveted. However, the presentations and campaigns were abysmally flat and I can’t stand Juergen’s pranking; almost as if she were trolling the industry. Can’t think of a single presentation nor campaign of her Chloe that stood out if my life depended on it. And her only ever designing for women, leaves her at a disadvantage since menswear is equally as important to me— and I believe, many others as well. Thus her and Hedi are very different. I admire Phoebe for designing solid fashions for women, but since other than her strong design sensibility, there nothing else impressive about her branding of Celine, I find Hedi inspiration for his strict vision of fashion— down to the typography that’s on a label with him. And that’s more creatively potent than just a very well designed piece of clothing,

@Phuel I hope you do not get kicked off this forum for speaking the truth about Philo! Her army may try and ban you . All jokes aside, that is exactly how I feel regarding the comparison between PP and HS. Love your point.

 

[Phuel]

^^^ Oh yeah— to design equally not just creatively impressive, but also inspirational and aspirational fashions for both women and men are only achieved by the rare Greats. I’d say it’s much much much harder to design for men and maintain a sense of distinct purpose and creative vision than it is to design for women. Add to that a designer whose menswear is as equally creatively strong, daringly innovative and complimentary to their womenswear— that is the rare, exceptional talent.

Other than Phoebe having contributed to Celine, her and Hedi are so vastly different in not just their aesthetic and sensibility, but in every which way. It’s like comparing languages LOL

 

[Fulton St Critique]

That is perhaps what I enjoy most about Hedi’s work. While, as @jeanclaude pointed out, the level of execution and design is not as refined or “boundary-pushing” so to say as one may hope from a creative perspective, he certainly transforms the expected into a spectacle.

For one, I was never really enticed by his second go-around at SL. Though, I respected the marketing and disruption he brought to the house after we had to witness the steady decline of newness from Stefano Pilati. Even with the refined sensibility Pilati designed with, I can’t be the only one who felt it reached a plateau heading into his exit.

Same goes for Dior Homme. Prior to his arrival it too appeared stale- even I was not yet born seeing the offerings of the original “Dior Monsieur” fail in comparision to the fashionable line we expect to see today.

Slimane’s Celine- and career- is a contentious subject. But I cannot help but have respect for him, though he is certianly not the world’s greatest fashion designer, he is definately a talent that in my eyes should be apprecaited and studied heading into the future. A true world builder, even if that world is not for everyone.

 

[Frederic01]

I actually found the fw19 silhouette with the cropped wide pants with combat boots to feel very fresh for Hedi. It was something Hedi hasn't shown before.

Dior Homme Autumn Winter 2007/08.


VOGUE

 

[Lola701]

The real difference when it comes to Hedi’s vision compared to his contemporaries is that he always had the opportunity to fulfill his entire vision.
I wasn’t a particular fan of Chloe by Phoebe. It simply wasn’t my sensibility even if it was good (the irony is that I loved Stella McCartney). Celine was the first real display of her vision.
Hedi’s aesthetic in fashion has went from a total modernism (which was part of his time) to something more nostalgic and I only speak about menswear. The YSL man was totally different from the Dior Homme man who was totally different from the Saint Laurent men. Some elements are shared and there’s a constant handwriting but it’s different.
What is interesting is that his vision in architecture or beauty has remained the same. There’s always that touch of classicism. The great Celine fragrance collection is a diluted version of what he did at Dior Homme for example.

Céline by Phoebe was our real introduction to her aesthetic rather than her designs. Someone like Tom Ford, much like Hedi had time to install his vision. I still remember the Gucci and YSL stores. In terms of Fragrances, Tom has always had a particular taste. YSL beauty was super on point under his direction, very glamorous!

Even someone like Nicolas. Now his role is limited at designing clothes and accessories but at Balenciaga, his vision was very specific in terms of menswear, beauty and store design…

I find it funny that people dreamed about Hedi going to Chanel because there, his limits will be shown…In a sense that his designs works in his environment. Karl managed to make the most out of doing just fashion but Hedi needs and requires more. And nobody will give him that there…

 

[volft]

FW19:

Source: Youtube.com

 

[volft]

The great Celine fragrance collection is a diluted version of what he did at Dior Homme for example.

I can totally see where you're coming from with this sentiment. Although both his Dior and Celine fragrances share a constant handwriting, there is a difference between them. His Dior fragrances feel significantly different than his Celine fragrances, so much so that someone who loves his Dior fragrances might not love his Celine fragrances. Although his Dior fragrances share similar ideas as his Celine fragrances, they differ in execution. His Dior fragrances were punchy, loud, complex, spicy, herbaceous, Eurabic, and unisex masculine-leaning; whereas, his Celine fragrances are ethereal, diaphanous, minimalistic, softer, rounder and unisex feminine-leaning. I think the difference parallels the difference between Hedi's Dior Homme and Celine narratives.

His Dior Eau Noire was very bold and artistic, but it was ultimately a commercial failure. He has definitely learned his lessons with his Celine fragrances. After he left Dior, they effectively removed Cologne Blanche and Eau Noire from their line up. Now that Francis is coming back, he's restoring them back, and putting the church back in the centre of the village.

 

[Lola701]

I can totally see where you're coming from with this sentiment. Although both his Dior and Celine fragrances share a constant handwriting, there is a difference between them. His Dior fragrances feel significantly different than his Celine fragrances, so much so that someone who loves his Dior fragrances might not love his Celine fragrances. Although his Dior fragrances share similar ideas as his Celine fragrances, they differ in execution. His Dior fragrances were punchy, loud, complex, spicy, herbaceous, Eurabic, and unisex masculine-leaning; whereas, his Celine fragrances are ethereal, diaphanous, minimalistic, softer, rounder and unisex feminine-leaning. I think the difference parallels the difference between Hedi's Dior Homme and Celine narratives.

His Dior Eau Noire was very bold and artistic, but it was ultimately a commercial failure. He has definitely learned his lessons with his Celine fragrances. After he left Dior, they effectively removed Cologne Blanche and Eau Noire from their line up. Now that Francis is coming back, he's restoring them back, and putting the church back in the centre of the village.

There are very soft fragrances, almost EDT oriented. Don’t get me wrong, they are great but the Dior line was just stronger.
I have the line and offered some fragrances to some people. The Dior line evoked a stronger personality maybe also because Dior Homme was stronger as a fashion proposition and installed a total rupture from the past.

I think that someone who loves his Dior Homme fragrances can totally love the Celine fragrances because there is something approachable about it. The line is not everywhere so you don’t smell it everywhere compared to Dior that had two big success with Dior Homme and Bois d’Argent.

The return of Francis at Dior is great indeed. It’s normal that he brings the fragrances he created back…One thing about Francis’s fragrances is that they have a strong personality. He did wonderful things for Gaultier, I loved his Rumeur fragrance for Lanvin and the fragrances from his own line are great.

But his vision for parfumerie is IMO too singular for a house like Dior with Kim Jones and MGC…

 

[volft]

I think that someone who loves his Dior Homme fragrances can totally love the Celine fragrances because there is something approachable about it.

This is what makes me gravitate more towards the Celine fragrances, and I reserve the Dior ones for more "special" occasions. I value their approachability and wearability a lot, even if I know that's not what everyone might be looking for. I still remember how I wasn't particularly wow'd when I smelled them in store. It wasn't until I wore them for a few times that I was able to appreciate the subtle intricacies and nuances present in them. So they're definitely a grower, and not a show-er.