Designer & Fashion Insiders Behavior (PLEASE READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING)

[Littleathquakes]

Ah the straight hair argument. How tired. First off, straight hair is genetic. Meaning, there are POC that have naturally straight hair. Let's not act like white people created it. Straight (or blonde, since that seems to be another pseudo-argument going around) is not and never will be appropriation for the same reason why curly/wavy hair isn't. It has do with with your genetic makeup as opposed to something your entire culture created. So no, the straightening your hair argument is not and will never be conducive to any talk about appropriation.

And you're correct, there are many countries in Africa with many cultures. Specifically (though not limited to) countries such as Ancient Egypt, Nigeria, and kenya have had a long history with dreadlocks.

I don't think genetics has anything to do with it. MJ's point, as awfully worded as it was, was to say POC who don't have naturally straight hair and straighten it are doing the same as white people with naturally straight hair who pull it up into dreadlocks. It's not a tired argument at all.


As an aside, this seems to be a hot button for you as you just signed up and are quite active in this thread. Your dismissive attitude towards other members is hardly conductive to the dialogue in and of itself.

 

[modellove]

YOU have no idea what it means. The definition of cultural appropriation is that 'elements are copied from a minority culture by members of the dominant culture, and these elements are used outside of their original cultural context.' Dreads have been part of many cultures through history and the African American people's association with dreads is not their original cultural context. It is what YOU associate it with because it is in your country. That doesn't make it the only context.

A lot of Aboriginals have dreads and I would definitely associate it with them over African Americans but they are still not who I primarily associate dreads with. When I think dreads, I think hippie blonde surfers smoking weed. I live in an area of Australia where locs are very much part of the beach culture and it is in no way cultural appropriation. They are not copying these elements from Aboriginals or Torres Strait Islanders or African Americans or whoever. It is just a hairstyle that is ingrown into the culture because it represents an anti establishment look and a look where you are just too cool to care about your hair. Nothing to do with copying.

Dreads are no one's to claim. The origins of dreads are primarily Egyptian and Greek. That is the original context. If you want to scream cultural appropriation and claim to know the definition then the only real place anyone is appropriating dreads from is Egypt. Except, all origin stories vary and therefore no one culture is able to claim them. They have been part of so many cultures - Roman, Germanic, Viking, Israeli etc.


Ragingrootsstudio

Yes, dreads can be traced as far back as Ancient Egypt. They have dug up mummy's who still have hairstyles such as dreads, cornrows, etc. in tact. Most of the other cultures got their dreads BECAUSE OF the ancient Egyptians. Celts, Indian, etc. all got the dread lock idea from the ancient Egyptians...who were in fact black (though most archeologists love to miraculously argue that they weren't, but that's another story for another day). Throughout the course of history I'm sure we are aware how the ancient Egyptians hairstyle soon made its way to America, and soon got its resurgence again through Bob Marley. Ergo reiterating what I said: dreads are a part of black culture. Always have been and always will be.

I get that it may be different for you since you do not live in America, however considering Marc Jacobs himself is American and he knows alllll about how people react to cultural appropriation, yes it was very wrong of him to include it in his show. His comment just showed the mindset of lots of Americans who at this point in time just choose to not hear and understand all about why CA is wrong. Maybe in Australia you're black and white friendship don't care, but considering this is centered around Americans (MJ being American and all) none of that matters. There are HUNDREDS of people speaking out against the CA he did and the CA problem that we have in America all the time. We are not saying it for no reason. Take something from an ethnic culture, slap it on white skin and all the sudden it's "new" or "edgy" or "trendy"....even though it's been around for decades, just on ethnic skin. It's a form of minimalization. THATS why we speak out.

No, it's not and never will be "just a hairstyle" like people truly want to believe. Saying that, once again, minimizes EVERYTHING, we're trying to say. So does the tired excuse of "but the Vikings did it!" In America black people lose their jobs, get in trouble at school, get told they look like they smell like weed/patchouli (which is why when you said that that did absolutely nothing to help your argument), even get kicked out of the military for wearing all sorts of black hairstyles. But all the sudden when someone with fair skin wears it its high fashion

This happens constantly in black America and peoples lively hoods are on the line for things we've worn for centuries, yet white people can wear it with no problem, I really wouldn't expect you to even understand a morsel of what I'm talking about.

If you still cannot fathom what the hundreds of black Americans are saying and why we are saying either stop the cultural appropriation, or at minimum only use them on your black models, then you need to just read this article.

http://thetab.com/2016/04/05/isnt-ok-white-people-dreadlocks-83996

Hopefully this argument is over.

 

[modellove]

I don't think genetics has anything to do with it. MJ's point, as awfully worded as it was, was to say POC who don't have naturally straight hair and straighten it are doing the same as white people with naturally straight hair who pull it up into dreadlocks. It's not a tired argument at all.


As an aside, this seems to be a hot button for you as you just signed up and are quite active in this thread. Your dismissive attitude towards other members is hardly conductive to the dialogue in and of itself.

I didn't sign up for this thread just to post about race. That's the last thing I wanted to talk about. And my 'dismissive' attitude is simply me explaining why cultural appropriation is wrong and why lots of people have spoken up about it.

 

[dior_couture1245]

Hopefully this argument is over.

The argument is not over. I just don't think there's any interest to continue arguing over it without there being any willingness to see things from another perspective or acknowledge any kind of validity to what others think or feel. You're clearly not interested in changing your opinion or hearing what anyone else has to say.

 

[billiejbob]

Yes, dreads can be traced as far back as Ancient Egypt. They have dug up mummy's who still have hairstyles such as dreads, cornrows, etc. in tact. Most of the other cultures got their dreads BECAUSE OF the ancient Egyptians. Celts, Indian, etc. all got the dread lock idea from the ancient Egyptians...who were in fact black (though most archeologists love to miraculously argue that they weren't, but that's another story for another day). Throughout the course of history I'm sure we are aware how the ancient Egyptians hairstyle soon made its way to America, and soon got its resurgence again through Bob Marley. Ergo reiterating what I said: dreads are a part of black culture. Always have been and always will be.

I get that it may be different for you since you do not live in America, however considering Marc Jacobs himself is American and he knows alllll about how people react to cultural appropriation, yes it was very wrong of him to include it in his show. His comment just showed the mindset of lots of Americans who at this point in time just choose to not hear and understand all about why CA is wrong. Maybe in Australia you're black and white friendship don't care, but considering this is centered around Americans (MJ being American and all) none of that matters. There are HUNDREDS of people speaking out against the CA he did and the CA problem that we have in America all the time. We are not saying it for no reason. Take something from an ethnic culture, slap it on white skin and all the sudden it's "new" or "edgy" or "trendy"....even though it's been around for decades, just on ethnic skin. It's a form of minimalization. THATS why we speak out.

No, it's not and never will be "just a hairstyle" like people truly want to believe. Saying that, once again, minimizes EVERYTHING, we're trying to say. So does the tired excuse of "but the Vikings did it!" In America black people lose their jobs, get in trouble at school, get told they look like they smell like weed/patchouli (which is why when you said that that did absolutely nothing to help your argument), even get kicked out of the military for wearing all sorts of black hairstyles. But all the sudden when someone with fair skin wears it its high fashion

This happens constantly in black America and peoples lively hoods are on the line for things we've worn for centuries, yet white people can wear it with no problem, I really wouldn't expect you to even understand a morsel of what I'm talking about.

If you still cannot fathom what the hundreds of black Americans are saying and why we are saying either stop the cultural appropriation, or at minimum only use them on your black models, then you need to just read this article.

http://thetab.com/2016/04/05/isnt-ok-white-people-dreadlocks-83996

Hopefully this argument is over.

Oh my god...have you ever been to Egypt or met an Egyptian??? You're continuously painting all these cultures with one brush! First of all, Egyptians vary from north and south in regards to ethnicity. So no, they're not all black. Maybe listen to the archeologists...you know, those people who have expertise in the area.
Second of all, the fact that you are the only one arguing this whereas everyone else is very clearly and successfully rebutting you're argument proves that you maybe need to broaden your idea of dreadlocks and cultural appropriation.

 

[valliaddict]

As a mixed person I have to roll my eyes at these SJWs who cry wolf at the slightest thing they find offensive. Marc's comment wasn't articulated well in the slightest, but you cannot tell me that black people don't take inspiration from white cultures & vice versa. Live & let live, sheesh.

Oh, & I realize this comment may come across as flippant & that I don't care about actual racism. I do care, but the difference is that I know when to pull that card & when to walk away & let people live their life. SJWs don't.

 

[sixtdaily]

I've read the comments on Marc's instagram and I find it both really sad and funny that people insult him and call him ignorant or tell him to educate himself, and then claim that dreads belong to Black culture
His response was probably badly put, but he erased it quite quickly and apologized for the "straight hair on Black women = CA" comment.

@modellove : if you are using skin color do decide what hair styles are acceptable, by definition YOU are the one who is a racist.

 

[dsamg]

Yes, dreads can be traced as far back as Ancient Egypt. They have dug up mummy's who still have hairstyles such as dreads, cornrows, etc. in tact. Most of the other cultures got their dreads BECAUSE OF the ancient Egyptians. Celts, Indian, etc. all got the dread lock idea from the ancient Egyptians...who were in fact black (though most archeologists love to miraculously argue that they weren't, but that's another story for another day). Throughout the course of history I'm sure we are aware how the ancient Egyptians hairstyle soon made its way to America, and soon got its resurgence again through Bob Marley. Ergo reiterating what I said: dreads are a part of black culture. Always have been and always will be.

I get that it may be different for you since you do not live in America, however considering Marc Jacobs himself is American and he knows alllll about how people react to cultural appropriation, yes it was very wrong of him to include it in his show. His comment just showed the mindset of lots of Americans who at this point in time just choose to not hear and understand all about why CA is wrong. Maybe in Australia you're black and white friendship don't care, but considering this is centered around Americans (MJ being American and all) none of that matters. There are HUNDREDS of people speaking out against the CA he did and the CA problem that we have in America all the time. We are not saying it for no reason. Take something from an ethnic culture, slap it on white skin and all the sudden it's "new" or "edgy" or "trendy"....even though it's been around for decades, just on ethnic skin. It's a form of minimalization. THATS why we speak out.

No, it's not and never will be "just a hairstyle" like people truly want to believe. Saying that, once again, minimizes EVERYTHING, we're trying to say. So does the tired excuse of "but the Vikings did it!" In America black people lose their jobs, get in trouble at school, get told they look like they smell like weed/patchouli (which is why when you said that that did absolutely nothing to help your argument), even get kicked out of the military for wearing all sorts of black hairstyles. But all the sudden when someone with fair skin wears it its high fashion

This happens constantly in black America and peoples lively hoods are on the line for things we've worn for centuries, yet white people can wear it with no problem, I really wouldn't expect you to even understand a morsel of what I'm talking about.

If you still cannot fathom what the hundreds of black Americans are saying and why we are saying either stop the cultural appropriation, or at minimum only use them on your black models, then you need to just read this article.

http://thetab.com/2016/04/05/isnt-ok-white-people-dreadlocks-83996

Hopefully this argument is over.

But the Ancient Egyptians weren't all black. That is the point. Whether you want to ignore facts that have been proven by historians and archaeologists, the historic origins of dreadlocks are not all in black culture.

And please don't bring up the weed comment as if I was referring to blacks. I said that the surfer culture associated with dreadlocks here includes mostly hippies who do tend to smoke. That does not in any way meant that when I see Aboriginals with dreadlocks that I associate that with them. It is a completely different group of people.

I do, of course, understand the offence taken and I have grown up constantly hearing a similar complaint. When my mother came to Australia from Italy with her family in the 50s, rural Australians hated the Italians and Greeks. They were consistently teased for being wogs (which was a much more offensive term back then than it is these days) and bullied mercilessly for their dark, curly frizzy hair. As a result, they have all gone by more Australian sounding names their whole lives and are embarrassed of being associated with Italian culture. As I was growing up, most girls in high school were into curling their hair and everybody was very into tanning. Mum would always express shock and state how offensive she found it that the straight fair hairs Australians who made their lives hell growing up for having curly hair, now wanted that same curly hair and tanned skin. To this day, she is still annoyed when people curl their hair.

However, that is just how the world works and it should be celebrated that we all can take the beautiful parts of each other's cultures and live as one multicultural society. The most annoying part of this debate is seeing people of other races comment that 'white people hate them' etc etc and generalise all white people. It does nothing but create more of a divide. Even poor Riley and Jourdan are being attacked and accused of lying and told how they should feel.

The hair in the show was beautiful. Dreadlocks are beautiful. They have been a part of so many different cultures over history and of course, when they have shaped a person's upbringing, they take on a personal significance to some people (which is why I told the story above). However, I am sorry but you will never convince me that one culture has a claim on dreadlocks because that claim is not based on fact. They have been a part of many black and white cultures over history. You wanna have dreads and talk about the Dreamtime and play a didgeridoo? THAT is cultural appropriation and it is offensive. Having dreads is not.

 

[Deleted member 130879]

What everyone seems to be missing is this: those are not hair dreadlocks. Those are wool dreadlocks (sometimes called wool locks) used very specifically by cyber-punks along with electrical wires, rubber and other bits of "shiny". This is not even a "hairstyle" per se, but rather hair accessories. Sometimes, they are just wigs. You would really have to open a battle against a decades old rave subculture to properly deal with this. I know several people in the cyber-punk subculture, some even African-Europeans, and not once did I hear anything bad from them regarding the wool locks, the cyber-wigs or their chosen subculture. It's post-apocalyptic, post-industrial, Blade Runner, anime inspiration. Short fringes, shaved parts, wool locks, colours/neon dyes, plastic, rubber, wires, googles.

The cultural appropriation argument should be used when there's a clear misuse of a cultural symbol. I would be 100% with everyone claiming cultural appropriation if these were real dreadlocks inspired by a minority culture and/or in a Indian/African inspired collection. But this is clearly not the case. There was nothing even hinting to any culture besides the East Asian dresses (and funny enough, not a single soul talks about that).

And lets not forget Sophie Lancaster and Robert Maltby. Goths and cyber-punks are still victims of bullying and violence every day and this whole "cyber VS black culture" discussion now isn't helping. I've seen kids being beat up and getting water thrown in their faces for their "style". It's already too difficult for them to express themselves in public, hard enough to get a job, hard enough to go out without being pointed/insulted.

And yes, POC struggles are way worse and often institutionalized, but that should be another reason for sympathy and joining forces, not fighting each other like it's their fault.

 

[dior_couture1245]

Robin Givhan weighs in.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2016/09/16/the-uproar-over-marc-jacobs-and-dreadlocks-is-ridiculous/

 

[Marc10]

I don't really think the point of this is "who did it first". It's about how certain things are viewed and accepted when it's done by white people compared to POCs. When, especially black people, wear dreadlocks, it's overwhelmingly frowned upon by white society, with many bad connotations like dirty, smelly, hobo, marijuana-smoker, etc. (Everyone remembers the Zendaya/ Giuliana Rancic controversy for example). But when a white person wears it, it's viewed as hip, cool and edgy. That's the problem, it's the double standards, and how white people appropriate something they spent years marginalizing.

I surely don't think Marc is racist or anything like that, but his comment was very clueless and is a prime example of white privilege. "I don't see color or race". Yes Marc, you DO see color and race. We ALL see color and race. And we SHOULD see color and race. That's the basic step to have a better understanding of this issue and the world at large. To simply put your fingers in your ears, dismiss the complaint altogether from the people who matter, and not make an effort to yourself is very sad.

 

[dior_couture1245]

I also think it's a bit inappropriate to take this particular instance out of context and for people to question that Marc's intent was anything but celebratory. When has he ever been anything but celebratory? To call into question his integrity I think is very low.

This is the same man that casts in his shows and campaigns young, old, short, tall, white, black, Latin, Asian, bombshell, bizarre, skinny, fat, gay, straight, trans, and more.

Obviously using the term "I don't see color or race" is sensitive, but I think we're not looking at the intention of that term - I wouldn't imagine that he's coming from a place of saying "he doesn't see race," as if race doesn't matter, I feel as though what he meant to say (or maybe should have said?) is that he sees people for who they are and is interested in and inspired by anyone who is uniquely beautiful and beautifully unique, regardless of race, age, gender or sexuality. What issue can anyone have with that?

 

[Spike413]

^ this.

 

[dsamg]

Karl weighing in on Kim's robbery
http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/10/kar...dashians-robbery.html?mid=facebook_thecutblog

 

[billiejbob]

Karl weighing in on Kim's robbery
http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/10/kar...dashians-robbery.html?mid=facebook_thecutblog

While no one is to blame for the robbery except the people that robbed Kim, Karl does raise a very important point.
Boasting your personal wealth over social media is a recipe for disaster, especially if you're flaunting your locations etc too.

 

[Littleathquakes]

I don't believe the whole robbery story at all, esp being a Kardashian I wouldn't put anything as being above them. they will do anything for publicity, and it just so happens the new season starts in a few weeks.

 

[MulletProof]

^ I even know how they're going to edit it: scene of the Kardashians partying and loving PFW, Kim is seen leaving dinner laughing and saying bye to everyone. Black screen. Phone rings at 4 am. 3-second awkward, too rehearsed reaction for the camera of every member of the family (or a reaction filmed earlier for something else but used for that anyway ). Kim is seen leaving Paris. Show descends into funeral mood. End of episode.

 

[dior_couture1245]

Yeah, I don't buy it for one second haha. Totally manufactured incident.

 

[Lola701]

I kinda believe it. It's amazing nobody believes it here in Paris.
No matter what, Karl said the truth. I found the whole thing about her coming back to the US with an army of security ridiculous. She really needed that here in France, it's beyond OTT to do that there.

She must be traumatized but i believe it will be good for her to step back.

She will, obviously, gain a lot of publicity for that. I can already see her on a cover of Vogue or Vanity Fair for her "special confessions" since the robbery.
Then, a lot of Vogue, Elle...etc. With a tagline like "Kim Kardashian, all about her new-life away from the spotlight" or "Kim Kardashian: life as a survivor".

 

[CommanderTMugler]

Yup, I'm waiting for the Vanity Fair headline "Kim breaks her silence" with a cover shoot and spread of her looking a bit sad and serious as a loving housewife with a family in their cozy home. I'm thinking the December cover right after Thanksgiving would fit but that's usually a more festive and light hearted cover... she could wait until January when there's no hype and needs to boost up her publicity levels and seem more "exclusive".