John Galliano Is Stripped Of Legion Of Honour

[Thefrenchy]

That was the right decision and I'm glad it has been taken.

I'll never stop being baffled by those who will never stop excusing him just because they liked his work. It's just beyond me. Do people not understand what his words meant? Did some skip History classes to fail to understand the impact of his hateful speech?

I won't go through that again but I, for one, do not believe in the "but he was intoxicated" excuse. I've never heard anyone saying similar things when they were under the influence... Plus, don't people often say that drugs and alcohol tend to make you a bit more "honest" about your inner thoughts?

Anyway, what's been said has been said and he has been punished. I will never forgive him for saying those things but I do hope he can rebound in a couple of years. What I just do not want to hear is all those people who keep acting as if what he said wasn't very serious and that we should quickly move on.

 

[ParadEyes]

You mean the ones who were recording the event and laughing about it? Yes I'm sure they're still absolutely torn up about it. How difficult it must be to be them. Because no other person has been on the receiving end of an insult and come through the ordeal unscathed.

Have none of us EVER said anything offensive to/about someone? Have none of us EVER made an offensive/politically incorrect joke about a person/group of people that, in most people's eyes, would be considered wrong to say aloud? Have none of us EVER taken the lowest blow possible to try and hurt or upset someone in a disagreement or argument?

Must just be me that's been less than a perfect human being.

Personally I think the fact that people have become so certain that he's truly antisemetic says more about them than it does about Galliano. Let's not lose sight of the fact that not a single one of us knows for sure what goes on in his head.

GOOD points.

 

[Spike413]

That was the right decision and I'm glad it has been taken.

I'll never stop being baffled by those who will never stop excusing him just because they liked his work. It's just beyond me. Do people not understand what his words meant? Did some skip History classes to fail to understand the impact of his hateful speech?

I won't go through that again but I, for one, do not believe in the "but he was intoxicated" excuse. I've never heard anyone saying similar things when they were under the influence... Plus, don't people often say that drugs and alcohol tend to make you a bit more "honest" about your inner thoughts?

Anyway, what's been said has been said and he has been punished. I will never forgive him for saying those things but I do hope he can rebound in a couple of years. What I just do not want to hear is all those people who keep acting as if what he said wasn't very serious and that we should quickly move on.

Not to keep harping on the same points, but what exactly WAS the impact of his hateful speech? Did his words kill another 6 million Jewish people? Did his words reignite a wave of Nazism? No, no they did not.

I don't think anyone needs to take a history class to understand that horrific events which took place 60-some odd years ago and words mentioning those events are absolutely not in the same league and never will be. How can you compare the seriousness of those atrocities to a drunken verbal assault?

And frankly, I take great offense to the fact that you've basically said that anyone who is demonstrating sympathy or understanding, anyone who is saying that while he deserved to be punished his punishment seems incredibly extreme, is doing so just because he's made some beautiful dresses.

 

[mimo]

As regarding to how his hateful speech had no impact, you have to remember most problems in history have started with just a speech.

I don't see the problem with taking the title away. Its an award like any other and if you don't live up to the honor of it, its taken away. Its their award, if they take it away they have the right to.

 

[fashionista-ta]

I think the importance of hate speech is what it makes possible. Sure, you could say, and I think some have, just a few hateful words--what does it matter.

If it weren't for the many, many Europeans just a few short generations ago who supported or tolerated Hitler, who actively applauded him or failed to stand up against him, the Holocaust wouldn't and couldn't have happened. It was a singular incident, but it wasn't entirely unique. There's a reason why these laws exist--to keep it from happening again.

Every year in this country, individual people die as a result of hate crimes--against race, religion, sexual orientation. Hateful words lead to hateful actions. I wouldn't exactly mind some European style hate speech laws here.

 

[Thefrenchy]

Not to keep harping on the same points, but what exactly WAS the impact of his hateful speech? Did his words kill another 6 million Jewish people? Did his words reignite a wave of Nazism? No, no they did not.

I don't think anyone needs to take a history class to understand that horrific events which took place 60-some odd years ago and words mentioning those events are absolutely not in the same league and never will be. How can you compare the seriousness of those atrocities to a drunken verbal assault?

And frankly, I take great offense to the fact that you've basically said that anyone who is demonstrating sympathy or understanding, anyone who is saying that while he deserved to be punished his punishment seems incredibly extreme, is doing so just because he's made some beautiful dresses.

Do people realize that all this happened just 70 years ago, which is NOT that long ago? Do people realize that some of us have lost family members for the only reason that they were jewish? Do people realize it still hurt when you hear those hateful words in 2012? That qualifies as a negative impact on people.

I will not bother commenting on the last two questions of that first paragraph you wrote, for the only reason that it would not sit well with this forum's rules. Let me just say that with that kind of remark, one can excuse a lot of unexcusable things...

I see that you simply consider it as a random drunken verbal assault, I don't. For reasons I've explained in my previous post.

You may take offence to the fact that I said that many of the people who defend him do it because they think he was a creative genius, but I'd suggest you go through the threads dedicated to that matter again and notice the amount of "but he was a genius".

Now I'll tell you what I take great offence to. I take great offence to the fact that in your first post in this thread, you said the following

There are actual criminals who suffer less severe punishments than Galliano's been dealt for what was, at it's core, not THAT monumental an offense as far as I'm concerned.

I'd suggest you do some research about French Law. For what he did, the maximum sentence is 6 months in prison and a fine of 22500€. He didn't go to prison and was fined 6000€. Therefore, no, the sentence was not harsher than it should have been. Also, Let me remind you that he was found guilty by a French court, therefore he IS an "actual criminal" as you would say. Sure, he was fired and had to face the public's reaction but as a famous face and head designer of one of the world's most famous fashion houses, it was a logical effect. Not a harsh one. Finally, let me tell you that I am utterly shocked that you may think that a hateful racist and antisemitic speech is not an offence "that monumental" in that case. Under the influence or not, the French justice found him guilty of anti-semitic behaviour. That should suffice to make the offence "monumental" enough.

 

[TREVOFASHIONISTO]

I think being fired from two very high paying jobs at his own label and Dior is equivalent enough to that fine and those years in prison, as well as the company basically trying to erase the history and impact he made. I mean would people still be upset if he did go to jail and was re-offered the job?

Do people honestly think he is going to get another job that pays that well?

I am saying that this last punishment was a little uncalled for because it is so late in regards to when this occurred. Also, not to pull the race card, but I don't think this would have been as heavy if this were something against black or arab people. Too many situations have happened recently (black face, VI's slave earrings) where all it took was an apology and people forgot about it. As well as other members on here making others seem as if they were crazy for being offended by it.

Also, some people are bein really dramatic... Speaking as if John Galliano was planning to start an attack on Jewish people. As I watched the video I saw John clearly responding back with a low blow attack, very similar to a child, in order to get the people recording to leave him alone. I've seen drunks and drug attacks do it in NYC. it is only for attention, and they never know what they are saying because none of them are in the right state of mind.


I guess that's why I feel sorry for him because when I see these people on the streets in NY it's clear that they need help, and the best thing was that John actually did get help

 

[Thefrenchy]

I think being fired from two very high paying jobs at his own label and Dior is equivalent enough to that fine and those years in prison, as well as the company basically trying to erase the history and impact he made. I mean would people still be upset if he did go to jail and was re-offered the job?

Do people honestly think he is going to get another job that pays that well?

I am saying that this last punishment was a little uncalled for because it is so late in regards to when this occurred.

Being fired and fined equals spending months locked up in prison?! That's a good one! Gosh, the things you read here...

Also, SO WHAT if he doesn't find another job that is well-paid? I don't get the issue here? As someone ironically said in this thread "poor Galliano who made millions for years"! Probably won't be able to pay the electricity bill and feed his cat!

Finally, contrary to what you seem to think, the decision was not uncalled for. Indeed, according to French Law:

Members convicted of a felony (crime in French) are dismissed de jure from the order. Members convicted of a misdemeanour (délit in French) can be dismissed as well.

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legion_of_Honour


That decision was to be expected since what he did violates French Law. Not to mention France's history during WWII. While one may find all this completely unfair, it is completely logical and in accord with French Law.

 

[ParadEyes]

Galliano invoked the name and actions of someone who attempted with some success to wipe an entire ethnicity from the face of the earth. There is no French/Arab or French/African equivalent to that, as far as I know. Colonialism (as bad as it was) is a far cry from genocide.

How would you define a genocide?
And what do you consider what France did in Algeria?..Because there actually are many people who refer to it as a genocide.
It's a bloody history of massive destruction. The French army killed more than 1.5 million Algerians during the war, committed massacres, mass murders, terrifying torture..not to mention the economical and cultural damage..
Lets not get into politics,..because it will only reveal the shocking hypocrisies.

I guess governments control what history they teach in schools.

 

[Les_Sucettes]

I am saying that this last punishment was a little uncalled for because it is so late in regards to when this occurred. Also, not to pull the race card, but I don't think this would have been as heavy if this were something against black or arab people. Too many situations have happened recently (black face, VI's slave earrings) where all it took was an apology and people forgot about it. As well as other members on here making others seem as if they were crazy for being offended by it.

I never understood this logic. The justice system worked perfectly in Galliano's case. People should demand it works in other situations too, not the other way around. His punishment shouldn't in any way be lighter because there are people not being punished for serious offences at all.

 

[TianSoFine]

Now we're talking about the impact of his speech. I'm sure his words would have caused the holocaust if they hadn't stripped him of the legion. And I'm sure the giggling girls were so offended.

 

[Thefrenchy]

How would you define a genocide?
And what do you consider what France did in Algeria?..Because there actually are many people who refer to it as a genocide.
It's a bloody history of massive destruction. The French army killed more than 1.5 million Algerians during the war, committed massacres, mass murders, terrifying torture..not to mention the economical and cultural damage..
Lets not get into politics,..because it will only reveal the shocking hypocrisies.

I guess governments control what history they teach in schools.

I'm afraid we're getting off topic and the mods will probably not like that but I'd like to answer.

Let's not mix genocide and war crimes. They are two different things. Referring to what happened in Algeria as a genocide can be quite questionable, actually. Personnally, I'll believe it the day it is proven that the eradication a whole population was planned from the very beginning. What happened there was absolutely terrible but I don't think it qualifies as a genocide. I do, however, believe that there was a will of violent domination. I'll not make any further comment regarding that matter since they will probably be deleted but it seemed important to answer. I'm willing to continue to talk about it via PM if you are interested

 

[Littleathquakes]

As regarding to how his hateful speech had no impact, you have to remember most problems in history have started with just a speech.

Something tells me John's speech isn't going to start Holocaust v2.0 let's not be so drastic about it.

 

[fashionista-ta]

How would you define a genocide?
And what do you consider what France did in Algeria?..Because there actually are many people who refer to it as a genocide.
It's a bloody history of massive destruction. The French army killed more than 1.5 million Algerians during the war, committed massacres, mass murders, terrifying torture..not to mention the economical and cultural damage..
Lets not get into politics,..because it will only reveal the shocking hypocrisies.

I guess governments control what history they teach in schools.

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic group.

When I was in school, it was common for history texts to pretty much end at WWII. I haven't had a lot of awareness of this conflict, so thanks for bringing it to my attention.

I don't think that Galliano's comments are going to lead to genocide, but there are proven links between other contemporary hate speech and mass acts of violence. The laws he was convicted of breaking are in place to help ensure that hate stops at hate speech (if not before).

If you don't think hate speech is a problem, take a look at Anders Breivik's manifesto and its antecedents.

 

[before]

Let's not mix genocide and war crimes. They are two different things.

How exactly did you reach this conclusion?

 

[Thefrenchy]

^ I'll PM you because I'm afraid it'll be considered off topic

 

[tigerrouge]

A lot of people in history have been very lucky they didn't live at a time when their every move was easily recorded by innumerable people and instantly transmitted for the world to see. Information about their failings, their frailties, and their infidelities was suppressed, so an airbrushed picture of their moral superiority has passed into history as the accepted story.

So I imagine that a good number of those other people awarded the Legion d'Honneur... it's not that they never had addictions or outbursts or prejudiced mentalities, it's that they were never caught at their low points, or when they were truly speaking their minds.

 

[TianSoFine]

So I imagine that a good number of those other people awarded the Legion d'Honneur... it's not that they never had addictions or outbursts or prejudiced mentalities, it's that they were never caught at their low points, or when they were truly speaking their minds.

I think that's a good point you raise.

Referring to what happened in Algeria as a genocide can be quite questionable, actually.

The French government seems to deny this but in other parts of the world (like Canada), they teach that it's a genocide, plain and simple. But the legion is awarded by the French government so I guess it doesn't matter.

 

[dsamg]

are you seriously trying to link a drunken tirade to the Holocaust People act differently when they're under the influence of alcohol. That's not an excuse for what he did. But to accuse him of being a closeted racist whose drunken outburst speaks of his true character is absurd. Those actions under the influence certainly do not characterize any person in his normal state. And considering Galliano comes from Jewish lineage, that's even more absurd.

Sorry but I know what stupid things people say when they are drunk but not full on hate speech and NOT that they love Hitler. Everybody acts differently under the influence of alcohol but generally people do not say racist things like that unless they already believe it on some level. A big part for me was that he could say those things to Italians. Just think of how many Italians there are in the fashion industry, whether he was drunk or not it is so incredibly offensive for him to say what he said.

 

[iluvjeisa]

Sorry but I know what stupid things people say when they are drunk but not full on hate speech and NOT that they love Hitler. Everybody acts differently under the influence of alcohol but generally people do not say racist things like that unless they already believe it on some level. A big part for me was that he could say those things to Italians. Just think of how many Italians there are in the fashion industry, whether he was drunk or not it is so incredibly offensive for him to say what he said.

You're interpreting what he said literally. But it's possible, and I think more likely, that he tried to scare these people off, or shut them up.