Boys And The Hoodie

[Johnny]

whatever the reasoning, i believe state should stop messing up with what people wear , this is too fascist.. if society wants to stop crime, they need to do something more drastic than just ban hoods or other garment styles, its too rediculous...
give people education, jobs and a dream for the future, this will reduce crime, not a hood ban or more surveillance..
innocent respectful citizens get annoyed with all this cctv around and uk seems the worst for cctv cams, its intimidating.. and has the opposite results, makes people nervous and upset, its like we are all 'suspects' until proven otherway.. give people jobs and a vision.

i guess wearing a hood up will turn out as somekind of political protest stance against constant surveillance..

as for banning headscarves etc, i find this completly wrong and aggressive, its so disrespectful of religious tolerance, let people be

Lena, as PoC pointed out it's not the state that's put this ban in place, it's the private company that owns the shopping mall. If people wearing hoods up in an indoor mall statistically are more likely to shoplift, what's wrong with doing something about that.

As for CCTV. I am a respectful citizen and I can honestly say that I've never once been bothered about CCTV. Why would I - I don't do anything that can lead to any kind of complaint. And if I did, well it would be a fair cop wouldn't it? For those, on the other hand, who beat respectful citizens up on the street, I think CCTV is a good thing.

The heacscarves thing is compeltely differnet since it relates to issues of religious tolerance as you say. However, I completely and utterly think it's a good thing. If a state is truly secular, I can't see why it should allow express signs of difference between people based on religion, to perist. It's an attempt, in my view, to break down barriers between people rather than to create confrontation.

 

[PrinceOfCats]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=8&q=big+brother
2 entries found for big brother.

big brother
n.

1. An older brother.
2. A man who assumes the role of an older brother, as by providing guidance or protection.
   1. also Big Brother An omnipresent, seemingly benevolent figure representing the oppressive control over individual lives exerted by an authoritarian government.
   2. A state, organization, or leader regarded in this manner.

'Big Brother' is a Stalin-esque dictator not Bill Gates! I'm not really bothered what the dictionary says - they need to read 1984...

 

[Lena]

johnny, the state is responsible if it allows private companies decide what people can and cannot wear, excuses for not agreeing here but to me this is too much, to be told what i can or not wear..

regarding cctv, not that i have anything to care for but for me, its annoying just because its everywhere, all the time
of course i agree that for some it may cool, i mean if they like to be watched all the time? why not? we are all cctv stars, some of us just dont enjoy this too much, from an esthetic/philosophical/political point of view

 

[screenage]

johnny, the state is responsible if it allows private companies decide what people can and cannot wear, excuses for not agreeing here but to me this is too much, to be told what i can or not wear..

regarding cctv, not that i have anything to care for but for me, its annoying just because its everywhere, all the time
of course i agree that for some it may cool, i mean if they like to be watched all the time? why not? we are all cctv stars, some of us just dont enjoy this too much, from an esthetic/philosophical/political point of view

Lena although I really agree with your points, I think the positive points of not allowing people to wear hoodies far out weigh any negatives, if someone attacks you they will be seen adn found alot easier than if they were hooded, and equally people know that so they are less likely to do something like that. I'm not to fazed about the whole thing, It's one of those things you live with like paying taxes, at the end of the day it probably helps us out

 

[screenage]

'Big Brother' is a Stalin-esque dictator not Bill Gates! I'm not really bothered what the dictionary says - they need to read 1984...

I totally agree with you, although people are slowly becoming afraid of Microsoft's dominance that they are fining them etc (sorry I am being vague, or else it would take too much time). I've read 1984 and I think it's a great book.

 

[screenage]

There was a court case a while back, I can't remeber if it was in the states or the uk, but a man got caught speeding like several times in one day, and he didn't get fined because the judge said that the speed cameras interferred with his right to commit a crime, CCTV in the UK is apparently the worst in the world, with more cameras per person than any other countries

 

[Lena]

tell you, i freaked out in London.. even the bloody busses have cctv on, i could see myself on the screen all the time.. of course i was looking fab and was making faces all the time, but if i was living in London, it wouldnt take long to start getting on my nerves, cctv cameras and signs all around me...

 

[helena]

Lena - i don't even notice them anymore. thats the scary thing I guess.

 

[kit]

I originally posted the article because it represented something of a paradox for me .

We in the UK have an increasingly authoritarian government , especially where private morals and both public and private behaviour are concerned .

We DO have a problem with youth crime and people ARE afraid to venture out at night , or even during the day , where they are likely to find gangs of young men wearing baseball caps with a hoodie pulled up over the cap . Mugging by such lawless youths is frequent as no doubt will become such other antisocial behaviour as ' b*tch - slapping ' , and ' happy - slapping ' , for instance , in the future .

Unfortunately , this lawlessness allows the red-top tabloids to brand ALL youth with such unacceptable behaviour , which is patently not so .

Disaffected youth is an enormous problem in a country which is supposed to be socialist and redistributionary of wealth to the extent that ALL young people get a fair chance in life .

Instead , we have a right wing government under the guise of a left wing one , that has INCREASED privelege for the few and which denies all types of young people fom ALL social classes the chance to gain a measure of success in their lives
Instead , the government excoriates the behaviour of a few as if it were a problem endemic to all young people .

Banning the wearing a hoodie , ostensibly to evade detection on a cctv camera is merely a convenient plaster to apply to the sores of a selfish , ' ME ' society . It's ludicrous , but sends out a message to that part of the electorate which prefers to keep its head in the sand as regards a fair society and committed members of such a society in the future .

 

[screenage]

I take it you didn't vote labour...

 

[Johnny]

I originally posted the article because it represented something of a paradox for me .

We in the UK have an increasingly authoritarian government , especially where private morals and both public and private behaviour are concerned .

We DO have a problem with youth crime and people ARE afraid to venture out at night , or even during the day , where they are likely to find gangs of young men wearing baseball caps with a hoodie pulled up over the cap . Mugging by such lawless youths is frequent as no doubt will become such other antisocial behaviour as ' b*tch - slapping ' , and ' happy - slapping ' , for instance , in the future .

Unfortunately , this lawlessness allows the red-top tabloids to brand ALL youth with such unacceptable behaviour , which is patently not so .

Disaffected youth is an enormous problem in a country which is supposed to be socialist and redistributionary of wealth to the extent that ALL young people get a fair chance in life .

Instead , we have a right wing government under the guise of a left wing one , that has INCREASED privelege for the few and which denies all types of young people fom ALL social classes the chance to gain a measure of success in their lives
Instead , the government excoriates the behaviour of a few as if it were a problem endemic to all young people .

Banning the wearing a hoodie , ostensibly to evade detection on a cctv camera is merely a convenient plaster to apply to the sores of a selfish , ' ME ' society . It's ludicrous , but sends out a message to that part of the electorate which prefers to keep its head in the sand as regards a fair society and committed members of such a society in the future .

These are all good things that you say Kit. I absolutely agree with what you say about the current Labour Government, but I think that that primarily relates to its reaction to the "war on terror". The measures that the government have attempted to introduce are nothing short of totalitarian. Utterly ridiculous, utterly frightening.



But disaffection is not just the fault of a government. People have individual responsibilities. One of the things that irritates me most is the idea that people have that government or "society" owes them something just because they don't have what others have. In some cases, the reasons for that are down to individual choices that those people make. What appears to be lacking sometimes is simple "decency". There is now no longer any "decent" working class in the UK. We have what Tony Parsons so memorably called "the tattooed jungle". Not the Beckham type of tattoo mind. Not everyone that "has things" was born with them, or even necessarily born with a clear path as to how to get them. Sometimes you have to work for them. It's all a bit chicken and egg of course, but why should I re-distribute my wealth (whatever it may be) to those who are not motivated to make an effort to generate their own.



God, I know I sound like I'm slightly to the right of Genghis Khan here, but I find this stuff difficult. I was watching a TV programme about a single mother the other night with five kids. Four different fathers. I couldn't care less about the sexual morality of it. But there is a cataclysmic practical effect there. Five kids, being dragged up with virtually nothing between them, in relative squalor, and a mother who just can't cope. Though here's the thing. She said at one point "why should I have to live like this just because I'm on the social?" She expects other people who work for a living to pay to improve her lifestyle. No one asked her to have 5 kids, there's no population shortage - why should she be paid for by people who work hard for what they have. Her life was really miserable, much more so than mine. But am I to feel responsible or guilty for her plight?



Faust directed me to the film "Dogville". One of its central themes is whether we should be arrogant enough to presume that we have the grace to forgive others their sins and weaknesses. I don't believe that we should. You can’t care for everybody. That’s what I said that sticking up for the “hoodies” wasn’t the right fight.

 

[kit]

I take it you didn't vote labour...

Actually , I DID , but wearing a ' Polly Toynbee nose peg ' .

AND I pulled up my hoodie to cover my face .

 

[screenage]

Actually , I DID , but wearing a ' Polly Toynbee nose peg ' .

AND I pulled up my hoodie to cover my face .

Damn evidently you're not thinking what we're thinking, lol.

 

[helena]

johnny voted liberal. lol. ironically the most left wing party at the moment in the uk. so take his ramblingss avec un peu de sel.

 

[screenage]

These are all good things that you say Kit. I absolutely agree with what you say about the current Labour Government, but I think that that primarily relates to its reaction to the "war on terror". The measures that the government have attempted to introduce are nothing short of totalitarian. Utterly ridiculous, utterly frightening.



But disaffection is not just the fault of a government. People have individual responsibilities. One of the things that irritates me most is the idea that people have that government or "society" owes them something just because they don't have what others have. In some cases, the reasons for that are down to individual choices that those people make. What appears to be lacking sometimes is simple "decency". There is now no longer any "decent" working class in the UK. We have what Tony Parsons so memorably called "the tattooed jungle". Not the Beckham type of tattoo mind. Not everyone that "has things" was born with them, or even necessarily born with a clear path as to how to get them. Sometimes you have to work for them. It's all a bit chicken and egg of course, but why should I re-distribute my wealth (whatever it may be) to those who are not motivated to make an effort to generate their own.



God, I know I sound like I'm slightly to the right of Genghis Khan here, but I find this stuff difficult. I was watching a TV programme about a single mother the other night with five kids. Four different fathers. I couldn't care less about the sexual morality of it. But there is a cataclysmic practical effect there. Five kids, being dragged up with virtually nothing between them, in relative squalor, and a mother who just can't cope. Though here's the thing. She said at one point "why should I have to live like this just because I'm on the social?" She expects other people who work for a living to pay to improve her lifestyle. No one asked her to have 5 kids, there's no population shortage - why should she be paid for by people who work hard for what they have. Her life was really miserable, much more so than mine. But am I to feel responsible or guilty for her plight?



Faust directed me to the film "Dogville". One of its central themes is whether we should be arrogant enough to presume that we have the grace to forgive others their sins and weaknesses. I don't believe that we should. You can’t care for everybody. That’s what I said that sticking up for the “hoodies” wasn’t the right fight.

I totally agree with you people should learn to pay their own way. Britain has a big problem with immigration, and unlike Howard's proposal it is totally wrong to put quotas in place, but if the benefit system was shaken, and totally changed people wouldn't spend their life savings to be stuffed into a lorry to get here. The thing is even if we bombard Bluewater with letters about the Hoodies, it is unlikely we will win as many people are pro "big-brother-ism" (do forgive my loose usage Poc and co) because it makes them feel safe.

 

[kit]

These are all good things that you say Kit. I absolutely agree with what you say about the current Labour Government, but I think that that primarily relates to its reaction to the "war on terror". The measures that the government have attempted to introduce are nothing short of totalitarian. Utterly ridiculous, utterly frightening.



But disaffection is not just the fault of a government. People have individual responsibilities. One of the things that irritates me most is the idea that people have that government or "society" owes them something just because they don't have what others have. In some cases, the reasons for that are down to individual choices that those people make. What appears to be lacking sometimes is simple "decency". There is now no longer any "decent" working class in the UK. We have what Tony Parsons so memorably called "the tattooed jungle". Not the Beckham type of tattoo mind. Not everyone that "has things" was born with them, or even necessarily born with a clear path as to how to get them. Sometimes you have to work for them. It's all a bit chicken and egg of course, but why should I re-distribute my wealth (whatever it may be) to those who are not motivated to make an effort to generate their own.



God, I know I sound like I'm slightly to the right of Genghis Khan here, but I find this stuff difficult. I was watching a TV programme about a single mother the other night with five kids. Four different fathers. I couldn't care less about the sexual morality of it. But there is a cataclysmic practical effect there. Five kids, being dragged up with virtually nothing between them, in relative squalor, and a mother who just can't cope. Though here's the thing. She said at one point "why should I have to live like this just because I'm on the social?" She expects other people who work for a living to pay to improve her lifestyle. No one asked her to have 5 kids, there's no population shortage - why should she be paid for by people who work hard for what they have. Her life was really miserable, much more so than mine. But am I to feel responsible or guilty for her plight?



Faust directed me to the film "Dogville". One of its central themes is whether we should be arrogant enough to presume that we have the grace to forgive others their sins and weaknesses. I don't believe that we should. You can’t care for everybody. That’s what I said that sticking up for the “hoodies” wasn’t the right fight.

I DO so agree with what you say . It's the middle - class dilemma of looking out for others , but being appalled by the selfishness and fecklessness of , to use an ironic cliche , ' the great unwashed ' .

I voted Labour , but with many misgivings , there really was no other option for me as a GUARDIAN reader .

I am appalled by the lack of upbringing many kids get , but you don't cure that with banning hoodies , or handing out sheafs of ASBOS , either .

I'll get off my soapbox , now .

 

[helena]

kit - you could have voted for mr kennedy?

 

[kit]

kit - you could have voted for mr kennedy?

I didn't want to let the Tory candidate in .

 

[screenage]

I'm a tory supporting guardian reader, paradox?

 

[kit]

I'm a tory supporting guardian reader, paradox?

Absolutely . As rare as hens' teeth .