Gucci F/W 2020.21 Milan

[gazebo]

Because it is. I did it last time because why type the following 3 paragraphs when I can just use one word that comprehends it all?. We're not talking about the tame and harmless conservative we got to see only 5 years ago, it's usually a hatred-filled, profoundly resentful rant on any demonstration (no matter how small or silly) that defies privileges and that echoes (often verbatim) the manifestos that have led to our current state of affairs.

Good news is that it's really a handful of members I'd say, it's just the forum is so empty it seems like a virulent wave but nah, same peeps, different threads lol. What can I say, aging does a number on all of us (no pun intended).. but on some more than others, 33-going-on-83 is a thing when you're a white man in the US, even if you're gay, with enough freedom to use Grindr, to build loving relationships, to not just protect yourself under the shelter fashion was but to proudly consume it, womenswear if you want, to flaunt it, to talk about it confidently with not even a memory of the stigma surrounding it only 30 years ago. It would be convenient to think it happened without a fight, or the 'pearl-clutching PC patrol on duty 24/7' that is so resented here and yet was obnoxious enough to hammer on what is okay and what is not okay so it could enter the thick skull of some, normalize it, and with that, encourage respect or tolerance so these others could then feel safe enough to be themselves, demand equality and not hide anymore. For some these days, let's swim nicely in all these privileges, like you were born into them and get to exercise them cause you're cute like that.. let's act like nobody ever fought for them, for you, and annoyed the hell out of the status quo, and let's constantly put down anyone younger than you are, with a different cause and all of their concerns and the way they explore sexuality or race, because 'back in my days' it wasn't like that.

So yeah, I'd like to clarify that this forum is not going alt-right just because that thin ice broke for one. It would be great if, just like this forum created rules to eliminate the amount of fights during the Bush days, some rules or quick response to reported posts with homophobic/racist undertones could be implemented. tFS has always been about diversity, not as in diverse forms of hateful points of view but the diversity that opposes hate because we were all VERY different and from different corners of the world, beliefs, races and understandings of gender and sexuality, maybe some forgot about that, but yup, THIS is the forum you signed up to, and it's not an anarchic one, there are rules and new rules could be added so those who have outgrown it can fly away. When the ever-so polite 'thanks for posting'/'no politics allowed' tFS is starting to feel too damn progressive and liberal, go 4chan (there's gotta be a fashion section there, just not sure they welcome all dudes).

Okay. I don't know what this collection is.. looks like Undercover when he went commercial.

This is absurd.
So the rules are going to be laid down, once more, by "the left"? No ma'am.
You want to alienate some of the few people who still partake in this forum?

Put Melania on Vogue, and all is gonna be fine!

 

[helmutnotdead]

The collection and the discussion are making me yawn.

 

[MulletProof]

This is absurd.
So the rules are going to be laid down, once more, by "the left"? No ma'am.

hm, sir, the rules that you seem to associate with whatever divisions are going on back home are already in place here, just lightly enforced because of low activity. They’ve only ever alienated the people who wanted to bully/intimidate/discriminate others but let most comment freely without feeling insulted out of nowhere (as it happens in most forums and as it used to happen here when politics/religion talk was allowed). You actually benefit from them probably more than the average member being from where you are... I doubt you’ve ever read here a dismissive comment about your origins or country, you could hasidic for all we know, but you’ll never be insulted or have to explain yourself for that thanks to these rules..

 

[dior_couture1245]

Because it is. I did it last time because why type the following 3 paragraphs when I can just use one word that comprehends it all?. We're not talking about the tame and harmless conservative we got to see only 5 years ago, it's usually a hatred-filled, profoundly resentful rant on any demonstration (no matter how small or silly) that defies privileges and that echoes (often verbatim) the manifestos that have led to our current state of affairs.

Good news is that it's really a handful of members I'd say, it's just the forum is so empty it seems like a virulent wave but nah, same peeps, different threads lol. What can I say, aging does a number on all of us (no pun intended).. but on some more than others, 33-going-on-83 is a thing when you're a white man in the US, even if you're gay, with enough freedom to use Grindr, to build loving relationships, to not just protect yourself under the shelter fashion was but to proudly consume it, womenswear if you want, to flaunt it, to talk about it confidently with not even a memory of the stigma surrounding it only 30 years ago. It would be convenient to think it happened without a fight, or the 'pearl-clutching PC patrol on duty 24/7' that is so resented here and yet was obnoxious enough to hammer on what is okay and what is not okay so it could enter the thick skull of some, normalize it, and with that, encourage respect or tolerance so these others could then feel safe enough to be themselves, demand equality and not hide anymore. For some these days, let's swim nicely in all these privileges, like you were born into them and get to exercise them cause you're cute like that.. let's act like nobody ever fought for them, for you, and annoyed the hell out of the status quo, and let's constantly put down anyone younger than you are, with a different cause and all of their concerns and the way they explore sexuality or race, because 'back in my days' it wasn't like that.

So yeah, I'd like to clarify that this forum is not going alt-right just because that thin ice broke for one. It would be great if, just like this forum created rules to eliminate the amount of fights during the Bush days, some rules or quick response to reported posts with homophobic/racist undertones could be implemented. tFS has always been about diversity, not as in diverse forms of hateful points of view but the diversity that opposes hate because we were all VERY different and from different corners of the world, beliefs, races and understandings of gender and sexuality, maybe some forgot about that, but yup, THIS is the forum you signed up to, and it's not an anarchic one, there are rules and new rules could be added so those who have outgrown it can fly away. When the ever-so polite 'thanks for posting'/'no politics allowed' tFS is starting to feel too damn progressive and liberal, go 4chan (there's gotta be a fashion section there, just not sure they welcome all dudes).

Okay. I don't know what this collection is.. looks like Undercover when he went commercial.

Gonna have to echo gazebo here and roll my eyes.

More finger waving and lecturing and guilt tripping from the left....who believe so undeservedly that they have a monopoly on morality. Does it ever occur to you that you hate those you disagree with? You can’t stand against “hate,” while you’re currently blinded by your own strain of it. You can’t be about “inclusivity” and “diversity” while you simultaneously suggest some of us are no longer welcome here.

You can call us bullies and bigots all you want, but I’m not fooled by it. This attitude of yours is meant only to satisfy your own, likely subconscious, savior complex.

I’m sure you sleep better at night knowing you single handedly prevented the next genocide by reporting a few comments online you didn’t like.

 

[MulletProof]

^ more in favor of handling a dumb comment myself than reporting for better or for worse, but genocides (whatever you mean by that- probably picked up from a manifesto too) weren't my late night hot milk, more like a homophobic comment I wasn't into. I should've kept quiet and avoid killing someone's vibe by making them feel guilty and 'unwelcome'.. it would certainly have saved this funny but not so surprising paradox (a historically oppressed group wanting to oppress, ha).

 

[Akhmatova]

Partisanship aside, I feel like we can all agree that there’s a line between respectfully critiquing a collection and criticizing it in a highly personalized or politically charged way

based on this discussion it seems like we won’t all see eye to eye, but we can be courteous of each other’s boundaries for the sake of… disagreeing with Alessandro Michele’s design choices together

 

[MulletProof]

^ thanks for that (nice first post.. welcome!).. I agree, and will try to tone it down on this side. I actually did not comment initially on the collection because I had a lot of negative junk to say about the cast lol. I think it's totally possible to express criticism without making it political and certainly not with discriminatory remarks, subtle or not so subtle, we know better because this forum has never allowed that.

 

[gazebo]

... I doubt you’ve ever read here a dismissive comment about your origins or country, you could hasidic for all we know, but you’ll never be insulted or have to explain yourself for that thanks to these rules..

I actually have never; not up until...now?!

 

[Akhmatova]

Thanks for the response and kind welcome @MulletProof !

 

[Phuel]

Because it is.

Don't mean to omit the rest of your post since I did read it all. But "Because it is" (cuz we are in power now…???) is the worst reason to validate such politically-charged bias behaviour. Animal Farm comes to mind. And it just becomes this stupid, vicious cycle of every political party fighting to win a majority so they can in turn dismiss/oppress/intimidate the others that’s on the loosing side. (I played hockey years ago with this league that had both straight and gay players, and one of the gays was always vocally dismissive and angry towards any Conservative beliefs along with intimidating anyone that didn’t agree with his very militant Leftist beliefs. He straightup declared he did not care for anyone whose political beliefs didn’t align with his because it was the others that made growing up hell for him so apparently that means he has the moral right to dismiss/oppress/intimidate anyone that he identifies as Conservative in turn now. Not someone with a power complex at all LOL)

If everyone wants to legitimize only negative experiences with any group and use that negative experience to shame/dismiss/condemn as a weapon, then not a single group would be left standing on their high horse LOL Just on my work experience alone, I’ve lost count of how many shady and powertripping women in positions of power I’ve suffered. But for very one of those toxic woman (usually in a professional environment), there is another women (usually on a social instance) who isn’t shady and powertripping. Jerks know no racial/gender/sexual preference/religious boundaries and once you start to dismiss someone because they don’t align with your social and political standards than you may as well be on your way to joining those that you’ve accused of being intolerant towards you.

(BTW, I’d hate to think that such a one-note designer with such bland offerings are even remotely sparking a political discussion on such a personal level. And that’s what bothers me with someone like him: His talent is so shallow and lazy, and he compensates it with this trendy SJ-flexing of the most basic level by crossdressing a pubescent-looking young man in a little girl’s Annie costume carrying a tin lunch box with the brand’s logo on it— or an even more lazy word on a tee like “Impotent” worn by a sad-looking twink, then expects us to fill in the blanks with our very personal observations and heavy lifting. Once again, I’ll reiterate that had he any semblance of creative talent to balance his so-called social/political flexing, I’d at least express respect.)

 

[MulletProof]

Phuel, you asked why is a 'reserved' opinion quickly dismissed as 'Breitbart'? I said because it is... Breitbart and explained why: it's hardly 'reserved'.. the whole reason this debate started was because someone did not opt for this elegant, reserved criticism that just happens to contrast with others' as you alude to, but crass mockery on gender (hardly reserved and totally inflammatory as we can see because someone did feel offended and I jumped in like 5 days later). Am I power-starved for pointing out how ironic it is?. I can discuss with you for hours (and with diorcouture too, we've done it for years and kind of agree on a lot of topics.. I think?) but pretty sure we'd get a warning since it's not about the 'collection'. Would love a different thread to carry on.

 

[Not Plain Jane]

i am enjoying the heated and intelligent politicking debate here, but i can see how it'd be better served in another thread. i love you all, just not this collection.

 

[Uemarasan]

All people born of or living in the Western world are privileged, regardless of gender or ethnicity. They should try coming here to the Third World to understand what it means to be truly underprivileged and how little the value of one’s life appears to those in power.

Sometimes I find it quite annoying when people in the West start complaining about their stations in life...

Anyway, good comment about this collection resembling the more commercial Undercover, a brand superior to Gucci in all ways. I guess the darkness and anarchy underlying Undercover’s ethos just didn’t translate. Here it just comes across as fetish and perversion?

 

[MulletProof]

^ I was so furious (being 18 or so lol) when Jun suddenly changed directions.. this looks like that collection, when the darkness and anarchy had been flushed in favor of.. let’s be polite and call it kawaii.

I have lived extensively in both first and third world (most violent region in the world represent).. when I’m in an “underdeveloped” country (whatever that means but omw right now as a matter of fact haha), people constantly talk about how their problems are real problems unlike in rich countries and nothing compares to that income.. and even I, in the US, would play a small violin inside when people talked about ~ancestral trauma~ (especially that one group I allegedly belong to according to this thread- what I assume is an American ‘left’) but.. even though I grew up with beheadings and most people in most regions (poor or not) would find that distressful, I have actually come to understand that the US is pretty brutal to their own people.. in a way that you can’t see or taste most of the time but it’s a form of inequality that is far more cruel than the one I have seen even in Africa.. because the means are there and the basics (food, housing and health care) aren’t for all, while they are actually untouchable in many parts of the “third world”. Changes are made for a lot less in stable countries that are nowhere near as rich, and even though I have seen my share of corpses and understood that one day you’re in and the next you may be out, I have certainly never ever seen people being somewhere between a living human and a corpse.. as I have in the US, drugged and infected and stripped of both a roof and sanity. So when I head to where I’m heading right now, and people my age are buying property, building families, but I somehow still hear that they know more about hardship than anyone in a rich country, it’s like... sure. The truth is, there will always be one person or an entire region struggling more than you are but human experience is about perspective and while I would be out of my mind to walk over pools of blood as I did when I was younger, demanding to not be constrained to feminine or male categories lol.. I have no reason to mock or undermine or even question the exploration of gender identity if a generation has been lucky enough to live in a relative paradise that grants them the freedom to do that. All of my childhood gay friends are alone, many have never dated, I’ve even played ‘the fling’ in front of their family plenty of times.. you are the body you were born with and that’s the end of it and in many ways, this plays a role in the violence.. gay marriage is only a debate because first world countries put it on the table, so here’s hoping the ambiguity of gender might eventually make it to other regions for our own good.

(here’s a suggestion for mods: there’s a gender or sex or something thread in FID that was last updated in like 2005 and it covers a range of random topics.. would this be more suitable there? can the posts be split and moved..?)

(also sorry for typos and lack of punctuation.. I’m on my phone!)

 

[Uemarasan]

Unfortunately, I’d have to disagree. People in the West have something the people in the Third World will never have: an eventual recourse to justice. It might take time, but it happens. Looking at the history of America - abolitionism, education for women, access to food and clean water, government assistance, elimination of child labor, universal suffrage, civil rights, gay rights - now when do you think the Third World will have all of these or, sometimes, any of these? Assault a woman, a gay person, or a poor person in America, you can go to the courts. Kill a woman, or a gay person, or a poor person in the Third World, you won’t even find the body, nor newspapers reporting about it. The institutions in power don’t care, and civil society remains neutered.

Frankly, I find Westerners have one thing in common: myopia. I’m sure many people in my country would rather be like the “living dead” in America than a corpse in the river baking in the sun in some poor slum. You think our governments care about feeding the children of a poor mother with a jobless husband? How many children in America have died because they had nothing to eat? How many in the Third World? And one more thing: the problems of the Third World are there in the first place because the West has been so busy colonizing, exploiting, and pillaging our poor countries for centuries, so whenever a person in the West starts complaining about their “problems”, well, better buckle up. Your problems will never compare to our problems, which, ironically, you are the root cause of. The West only exists because it has fashioned the “Third World” in a way that best benefits it. So I find it immoral that the West thinks it can compare its problems to those of the Third World.

And yet people in the Third World rarely complain about being exploited by the West. In fact, they see the West as the benevolent, charitable lords and masters that they supposedly are. Noblesse oblige. Go figure.

So, yes, I stand by what I said: all Americans and Westerners are privileged, regardless of gender, ethnicity, and creed. They’re all just fighting among themselves to see who has the bigger piece of the capitalist, globalist pie. The West is by default the privileged of the Earth.

I’m sure Michele never thought about any of this once when he was designing this collection. He just wanted to be the new Alexander McQueen I guess? Lol. If this is the direction he’s going in, I’m expecting “darker” themes in future shows.

 

[MulletProof]

^ In regards to impunity, you're talking about two different things, existing laws and the enforcement of them. A majority of the countries in the Third World have established laws for nearly everything you listed except gay people (because that's just way too funny and freaky, similar reaction as the first page of this thread but 50 years behind). Whether they are enforced or whether there are consequences when you break them is a different story and you'd be surprised by how the US is not so far behind, except they go by skin color (in addition to class- which I believe is the order you and me would be more familiar with). Research their jails and housing. This, imo, makes it very hard for people from other cultures to understand or even sensitive with.. myself included. Unless you're from South Africa, I guess.

Second paragraph.. you speak the truth. What I talked about my background is the result of their uninvited presence; no country has been spared from the US. Like you, I always thought that in order to afford world excursions, their people had to be better off in ways the average population in most countries could only dream of. Like you as well, and like most people outside the US do, I felt confident that my understanding of American life, their inequality, struggles, divisions were pretty accurate (something similar to trouble in paradise) and that I could state facts with the same freedom as my actual experience in a different environment, because they've exported their culture so aggressively, what's left to get, right?. It took time, and a lot of education through experiences and researching myself, to understand that was not the case, that the longer you spend in the US, the more complex, obscure and inexplicable it unveils itself to be. It's not about comparing, it's about understanding proportional differences, hardship in ways that are not immediate (as it is in the Third World) and knowing the common factor in both the US or in the third world, is a government for a minority, which takes actions anyone on the street would oppose if they fully understood what they mean. Ever seen an American uprising as the ones you see in Asia, the Middle East or Latin America and even Europe? no. What takes place (people going in circles with a little sign or a little hat or costume) makes you feel so sorry. That foot on foreign lands is twice as strong but a hundred times more disguised on their own people (since they're the only ones who could completely change direction and stop foreign interventions). A movement never quite becomes one before it's diluted.

You're speaking for your fraction of the third world in the third paragraph. That's not at all how it is in other regions. I grew up with 'the US? I could vomit!' and have consistently found it as I've ventured to other struggling regions. But, governments all over have done a great job at erasing the world neoliberalism from people's vocabulary. So whether you find imperialism 'charitable' or 'repulsive'.. both stances advocate (not just accept) the neoliberal practices that have ravaged their own economies and generations as a potential solution to their problems.

Anyway last I made the mistake of reading an interview with this Michele guy, it was actually an interview with Derek Zoolander. I'm surprised by anything he does now, and that he's functional enough to put together something so long and detailed. Can't help but wonder whether he'd be flattered or asleep after glancing over this thread haha

 

[Phuel]

^^^ I had to google "Derek Zoolander" because no way it’s that Zoolander…

And this is precisely why I cannot (and will desperately refrain from allowing myself to be affected by any remote morsel of social and political substance he may blindly blundered into as some rallying SJ cry for his “collections” by mere chance of whatever social activism of-the-day is trending on a SM platform ). He and Maria Grazia do not deserve the admiration nor attention.

 

[Uemarasan]

Really? The majority of areas in the Third World do not have protections for women and ethnic minorities (our equivalent of the race-based laws in America). A vast majority of Arab countries. A vast majority of Asia. It's quite apparent in our constitutions and our laws. "Hate crimes" do not exist here in the letter of the law. Saying that the American experience is not "far behind" the Third World is frankly an oversimplification and disingenuous. Sorry to say that. I know the American issues with jails and prisons. Do they know what jails and prisons are like in the Third World and who are in them? How many prisoners in America are the victims of extrajudicial circumstances? How many did not even go to trial? How many do not get regular meals in jail, do not have medical resources, do not get parole, do not get out of jail, do not get out of jail alive? The difference in conditions and treatment are a vast abyss.

I really find it difficult to sympathize with the idea of modern day suffering in America or the West. They have systems in place that will eventually self-correct, as seen in their histories. The Third World does not even have these systems in place. Besides, the majority of the people in America and the West are comfortably middle class. You can guess who the majority in the Third World are.

To clarify in my third paragraph, when I say that the majority of the Third World does not complain, well, non-English material and documentation say otherwise. Of course the rich, educated, and elite in the Third World are the ones complaining about the US. They are the only ones with access to education and the press and are aware of the economic realities. They are not the majority in the Third World. I have yet to encounter anyone poor condemn and complain about America and the West in the same way that our rich and middle class have. And certainly our newspapers and media are extremely slanted toward the perspectives of the educated class.

The only way for an American or Westerner to understand what it really means to be in the Third World is for them to spend years living in our poor areas with access to what our poor has access to with regard to education, housing, health, and employment. I guarantee America will seem like paradise when they go back.

I don't think it's that difficult for an American or a Westerner to admit that they are indeed privileged compared to the rest of the world and that their perspectives on their problems are honestly distorted.

 

[MulletProof]

Saying that the American experience is not "far behind" the Third World is frankly an oversimplification and disingenuous.

I agree. I said the selective implementation and repercussion of the law is. Never did I say the American experience as a whole.

You're speaking of the Third World as one entity (which is, I have to say, quite a Westerner thing to do) and it's not and this exchange is testimony of that.. are you speaking on behalf of people in rural Cuba, Central Asia, Muslim countries or in the illegal settlements around Buenos Aires? because the discourse is to condemn America in addition to their own government, you would actually be out of your mind to say anything remotely in favor of the US. Maybe it is a thing among the elites in Asia, but I can assure you that's not how it is in many regions, more the opposite (the elite are complicit to their presence).

I have far more experience in your last paragraph than I care to state publicly here but it comes down to seeing the "third world" as again, an entity and not a multitude of regions with completely different stories under a 'dumpster' type of label NOT created by them and then, favoring the idea that some people in a different region or country have problems that are less valid and that the population inside that country should settle with what they have because let's just be glad they're there at all.

 

[Uemarasan]

I am proudly not a Westerner and I don't profess to speak on behalf of the entire Third World. I express solidarity with the Third World as I am of the Third World and live here and acknowledge that we share many similar problems that can be contrasted with America and the West as an entity entirely opposite to us. However, I see nothing wrong with seeing the Third World as a monolithic entity for the convenience of this discussion since our problems are a direct result of the incursions of America and the West. The only way the Third World can in fact begin to overcome many of their problems is to see themselves as not so different from each other and in the same boat. I believe in the Third World versus the West. It's actually a very cunning trick of America and the West to break up a potential sense of solidarity in the Third World, to pit them against each other culturally and economically, military versus military, to see each other as "different" and not suffering the same under the hands of Western imperialism, to consider their problems and poverties as distinctly "unique" from each other, that America and the West are able to further their agenda. For there to be progress, the Third World needs to acknowledge itself as such and not surrender to Western platitudes of "individuality".

Being a "unique" culture or region is a privilege that Western countries can afford. Not here.