Christian Dior HC F/W 12.13 Paris

[disco54]

You don't need to refer to "body snatchers" simply because some of us disagree with your views. We can post our opinions and back them up with the points that we see and understand to support our views, in a civil way.


Care to back up why you would agree with the poster that this collection is "J Crew"? Is it the materials? The designs? I am genuinely interested to know. Like another poster asked, I'd like to know which J Crew I can go to to get my hands on these, no, not to wear, as this is not my style, but to collect, as these are exquisite.

Mutterlein has a right to her opinion and I have seen her posts over several years, she is quite informed and agree with her 100%. Yeah I said it looks like a capsule 50s inspired collection for Jcrew , Ann Taylor. I don't know what Fashion Mount Olympus you stepped down from , but everyone has an opinion , to each their own.

 

[JunyaSchick]

for me, this is great but looks closer to a pret-à-porter collection than haute couture...

 

[Zazie]

Mutterlein has a right to her opinion and I have seen her posts over several years, she is quite informed and agree with her 100%. Yeah I said it looks like a capsule 50s inspired collection for Jcrew , Ann Taylor. I don't know what Fashion Mount Olympus you stepped down from , but everyone has an opinion , to each their own.

I asked politely for what what she sees in this collection that is "J Crew", she can politely decline to provide her reasons. I always ask politely for what others feel are the reasons for their opinions, then I might or might not engage in further dialogue. If I feel it is worth answering someone's post, I will, if not, I won't. The purpose of a forum is to engage in discussions, whether or not one agrees or disagrees. I only speak about the collections, or definition of "haute couture", which are topics, I never attack the person. There is no need to get personal "body snatchers", "Mount Olympus" etc., seriously.

Sure you can still think these are J crew pieces despite all the reviews and the posts by others who explain why these fall under the definition of "haute couture", no one is going to change anyone's mind, however, as a topic on fashion knowledge, engagement benefits me and others who are interested to know more, not simply an opinion of someone. Others who disagree that this is RTW or feel that it is unfair to characterize this collection this way, or see other qualities in the collection should not be discouraged to speak up either.

 

[Morphe]

I am sure the people that have shown a liking for this collection don't appreciate being called "bodysnatchers".

 

[blackcherrified]

Wow chill everyone. Seems like there's a huge argument going on here.

Anyway what I feel about this collection is that, yes, Raf Simons brought his aesthetic to the house of Dior, and yes, he was respectful of the house's heritage, and yes, he did modernized some of the looks.

But there's something lacking in these collection, and imho, there's a lack in personality in this collection, they are beautiful clothes, albeit without a soul.

Now it's really back to the question of: Who is a Dior woman?

This is made even worst given the roulette of designers for the house in the past couple of years, from the flamboyance of Galliano, to the classic minimalism of Gaytten, and now the modernized minimalism of Simons. It's confusing the consumers.

And this notion is made worst by Gaytten's pretty commendable effort in his last couture show, which I think had successfully help to transit the house from its Galliano days to the new Dior. And to tell the truth, I see a Dior woman starting to form under Gaytten's direction, a lady, rich and appreciate classic stuff, though she's a bit old fashion, but she has the taste, and is a bit of fun.

To tell the truth, I would have hoped that Dior actually made Gaytten stayed for a longer duration at the house. What I like about Gaytten's work is that he truly helped to mould a Dior woman out of his collection, a new Dior woman.

But that said, I am not going to shoot down Simons' first collection for Dior, like how we shot down Gaytten's first couture. Time needs to be given to Simons for him to form his own aesthetic for the Dior woman, but given his first couture collection, I think that he needs to work more on forming the soul. After all, a collection can't really all be about being respectful to the house, it needs to be respectful to the woman who is wearing it.

About the kind reviews, they were kind of expected, especially Tim Blanks'. It's Conde Nast and LVMH, who would want to spoil the relationship?

 

[mackos]

This collection is a proof one shouldn't judge anything by the LQ livestream screencaps.

Even though I myself wasn't very fond of it looking at the first posts, I'm completely stunned after taking a look at the HQs. The amount of work that must've been put into these clothes is beyond impressive for me, the details, construction, embellishments... I cannot get enough of these.

It gains so much more at the closer look and definitely keeps me excited for his next collections now.

 

[tworomy]

It's nice but quite boring I'm not impressed.

 

[Naen]

Highly glad he's here to infuse his specific kind of disturbance into the conservative world of haute couture.
It's a promising beginning, here he has a great deal of possibilities and creative opulence to work with as opposed to a bit of restrained imaginings at JS, hence I'm really looking forward to all the upcoming.

 

[IloveDiorHomme]

3 words come to my mind

-boring
-safe
-boring, again

The archives of Christian Dior are so amazing, the construction of his clothes is so architectural and unique, and was avant-garde at the time.

What is avant-garde about this collection ? What is haute-couture about it ? NOTHING

Raf "LAZY" Simons gets the credit for his name, not for the quality of his work. I have attended fashion shows, and when you see wonderful pieces, your eyes shine. Like mine when I was 10 cm away from the A/W 2011 Givenchy Haute-Couture collection.

So many weak sihlouettes, come on, tailored pants with embroided tops ? It screams sales, sales, sales. Gaytton was way more better at this game. And I am kinda missing the crazyness of Galliano that would make you travel in a special universe and mesmerize you, even it was about excess and provocation. Monsieur Simons is "out at the picture" for me. As a client of his menswear line, I just miss the energy he got in the 90's with his very personnal take on garments, models, presentations.

AND I AM SO TIRED of finding excuses to those lazy designers, they have the money, the atelier and the press to approve their work even when it's irrelevant , this collection is just another proof of it...

 

[Marc10]

I was thinking after read the reviews how much the main fashion journalist were paid for make these strange good reviews.

Or maybe they honestly liked the collection.

 

[disco54]

3 words come to my mind

-boring
-safe
-boring, again

The archives of Christian Dior are so amazing, the construction of his clothes is so architectural and unique, and was avant-garde at the time.

What is avant-garde about this collection ? What is haute-couture about it ? NOTHING

Raf "LAZY" Simons gets the credit for his name, not for the quality of his work. I have attended fashion shows, and when you see wonderful pieces, your eyes shine. Like mine when I was 10 cm away from the A/W 2011 Givenchy Haute-Couture collection.

So many weak sihlouettes, come on, tailored pants with embroided tops ? It screams sales, sales, sales. Gaytton was way more better at this game. And I am kinda missing the crazyness of Galliano that would make you travel in a special universe and mesmerize you, even it was about excess and provocation. Monsieur Simons is "out at the picture" for me. As a client of his menswear line, I just miss the energy he got in the 90's with his very personnal take on garments, models, presentations.

AND I AM SO TIRED of finding excuses to those lazy designers, they have the money, the atelier and the press to approve their work even when it's irrelevant , this collection is just another proof of it...

Totally Agree!

 

[posey]

The beautiful interior decoration at the show. It was breathtaking!

(my photos)

 

[GERGIN]

3 words come to my mind

-boring
-safe
-boring, again

The archives of Christian Dior are so amazing, the construction of his clothes is so architectural and unique, and was avant-garde at the time.

What is avant-garde about this collection ? What is haute-couture about it ? NOTHING

Raf "LAZY" Simons gets the credit for his name, not for the quality of his work. I have attended fashion shows, and when you see wonderful pieces, your eyes shine. Like mine when I was 10 cm away from the A/W 2011 Givenchy Haute-Couture collection.

So many weak sihlouettes, come on, tailored pants with embroided tops ? It screams sales, sales, sales. Gaytton was way more better at this game. And I am kinda missing the crazyness of Galliano that would make you travel in a special universe and mesmerize you, even it was about excess and provocation. Monsieur Simons is "out at the picture" for me. As a client of his menswear line, I just miss the energy he got in the 90's with his very personnal take on garments, models, presentations.

AND I AM SO TIRED of finding excuses to those lazy designers, they have the money, the atelier and the press to approve their work even when it's irrelevant , this collection is just another proof of it...

How does laziness come from purifying the house from it's previous successors? I'm not going to say I didn't like John or Bill at the house but I think over-the-top couture has officially run it's course in the house of Dior.

It's so depressing how many people can't appreciate this collection from it's subtle use of tailoring, embellishing, fabrication and color. To see a house brought back to it's core from a brilliantly talented designer is such a thing to admire. Raf knew it wasn't about him. It was about the house of Dior and what it has stood for so many decades. In a time where whacky trends are coming in one after another, Raf has made probably the most wearable couture collection in the longest time, I always knew Raf wanted to make pieces that were wearable and he shows it beautifully in his first ever Couture presentation. I don't think clients pay crazy amounts of money for over-the-top couture pieces, I think they pay it for the custom tailoring of the clothes and to look perfect in them. Galliano's over-the-top pieces were always being altered one after another. I can't see any reason why the customer would want to alter any of these clothes...

 

[tatouejeremie]

people please stop embarrassing yourselves and stop saying this collection isn't haute couture. HC is a way of making clothes, it's not a look.

i was as disappointed with the collection as most people are in this thread, but honestly.. what was he supposed to do?
it's his first season at a label that's practically an institution and he seems to be too humble of a designer to ignore all that. he obviously wanted to respect the codes of the house in this first collection which sadly resulted into a collection that wasn't very exciting/interesting, but i really feel like this had to be done.

now that he has gone to the core of what dior represents he can now build onto it and make it his own (this also seems the way he handled designing for jil sander, the first few seasons were very careful and safe but as he grew more comfortable with his creative director position he took it to whole new levels)

i'm just happy marc jacobs didn't get the position in the end because i doubt he'd be as respectful to the house's history as raf simons has been

 

[JuiceMajor]

I wonder if the audience were requested to keep a straightfor face regardless. Lighten up people, don't get too serious. Just fashion! There are people who are dying! Anyhow, I want to stress how much I adore this collection

Someone throw a bucket of cold water please! I need to cool off.

 

[IloveDiorHomme]

For Gergin, I find him lazy because there is not a strong research on the cut, styling etc... Maybe he had a little time to prepare the collection, because he was still working for Jil Sander at the time. And you can feel it. Do I have to post pictures from the former Jil Sander shows to prove how can Raf Simons create unpredictible great silhouettes ?

And maybe I am old school, but the fashion world is full of designers who do ready to wear. Haute-Couture is art, craft, luxury and privilege. It has to make us dream.It has to stands-out, with all those thousands or annoying fashion shows where nothing happens.
This collection makes you dream ?
This collection is maybe "too subtle" and the difference between his RTW and H-C collections will be hard to find...

And to finish; I am a real Raf Simons fan, but this is not the point. I am not a hater of his oeuvre. I expect a lot from him. That's it.

 

[Scott]

the funny thing is,in the 40's-60's,simplicity used to be a huge part of the HC context.....where the tailoring,made-to-measure approach was a focal point. it wasn't all about the ostentatious spectacle of it all. adeline andre's seems to come to mind.

honestly,i think we're being a bit too harsh at this point. it's his first collection here and one he had to put together with hardly any time. i would rather see the evolution into the P-A-P and the next HC to see how raf carves out his voice at dior before making hasty remarks about the work he's doing. for a first collection i think it's lovely.

 

[shutterbug]

Are there still no photos of the backs of the looks?

 

[mrfox]

I wish this show had not been live streamed on the internet.
Obviously Dior wanted to capitalise on this marketing potential with all the celebrities and the event being newsworthy. Couture is about detail and craft and quality....none of which could be seen or felt via a computer screen.

I feel haute couture, if anything in the fashion industry can be, should be about something slower, more exclusive. About a relationship between designer and atelier. Between designer and client. between cloth, fit and body.

Would it not have been enough for this have been a private presentation? In this internet age that would have been a luxury?

I wonder if people would be having a "it looks like J Crew" if they were shown images of the garments stood in a museum like space on refined mannequins.

Because a bespoke pair of John Lobb oxford shoes take 8 months to make and cost £2,500 yet resemble a traditional shape (and not a GAGA style piece of sculpture that satisfies the eye though not necessarily the wearer) mean they are not worth the money? or the awe in the craft? Or the abilities of the person who has spent their life honing that skill?

Given Raf had 4 months and he had never worked with Couture before I personally think the results are wonderful. I feel it is super relevant for the modern world. I'm so bored of fashion dramatics, that relate to the 1980's and 90's stereotypes of "FASHION". I want someone to bring us into the future and raf is certainly someone to BEGIN to do this. And begin is an important word. So funny to think people expected in 4 months someone,who built his men's line in the wilderness for 10 years, to just overhaul Dior overnight. Raf takes his time - I wonder if the internet generation can deal with that?

 

[christian zh]