Saint Laurent S/S 2013 Paris

[Izreal]

You're confused they hired out of retirement one of the most successful and acclaimed designers in recent times? a man that was hired by Pierre at YSL in 1996? A man admired by Yves Saint Laurent himself? A man that completely re-invented Dior and made it a successful house for 7 years? I'm sorry I'm the one a bit confused here! As for the retirement of past items it's quite simple, Pilati & Slimane's aesthetic and direction are in total contradiction, it would be even more bizarre to have these two styles juxtaposed, a complete overhaul was the only way...for better or for worst depending on your point of view of course.. finally concerning the obvious cues from classic models. Hedi has always done this, at Dior Homme every season he'd take a classic and "Slimanify" it, look at it more like a tribute then a copy...

 

[agee]

It would not be a shock to me if this collection is deemed a best seller, after all Ralph Lauren is one of the, if not the, best selling designer labels. I do think that the collection as presented lacked coherence and seamlessness, and I think that it is fair to criticize it on that basis. To me if I were Slimane and the other powers that be, I would see it as that as an area to improve but I think that at the end of the day, a design house, especially in the short term, may find appealing to the buyers more heartening than appealing to professional and arm chair critics.

 

[advo]

OK, let's see if I can be more clear. I'm confused why they hired "one of the most successful and acclaimed designers in recent times" to overhaul a business that was doing just fine. Yes, the RTW needed a revival. But it's the least profitable area of the business! So reviving the RTW at the expanse of their cashcow - the accessories - is beyond crazy. Does that clear up your confusion?

Pilati & Slimane's aesthetic and direction are in total contradiction, it would be even more bizarre to have these two styles juxtaposed, a complete overhaul was the only way

Which explains even less the "reconstructed" models.

 

[Izreal]

..it was perhaps doing fine on a economic standpoint but it doesn't mean it was the right choice for the house. hedi has the right pedigree for ysl, besides he's parisian and has worked under yves & at dior, it's a much more logical choice then pilati, a milanese formed at armani...especially now that dior has raf, ysl couldn't remain idle in the chess game.. also you don't seem to realize that perfume & accessories might be the "cashcow" but are worthless without strong runway impact

 

[advo]

^In business, the only standpoint that matters is the economic. The measure for this collection is also whether or not it can sell - and more importantly, sell accessories.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but does his track record for "pedigree", "success" and "acclaim" not only cover menswear? So it might be a bit premature to assume just because he was successful at menswear, the same can be applied to womenswear. I think his aesthetics fit well with menswear. I also think his aesthetics could fit with womenswear, including YSL. I just didn't see it in this collection.

also you don't seem to realize that perfume & accessories might be the "cashcow" but are worthless without strong runway impact
That is a completely contradictory statement.

 

[Izreal]

Pilati & Slimane's aesthetic and direction are in total contradiction, it would be even more bizarre to have these two styles juxtaposed, a complete overhaul was the only way

Which explains even less the "reconstructed" models.

not at all, the "reconstructed models" are items hedi considers iconic, they're revisited with a twist. this has nothing to do with pilati's style & influences or whatever model you may redeem as successful..

also you don't seem to realize that perfume & accessories might be the "cashcow" but are worthless without strong runway impact
That is a completely contradictory statement.

it isn't...the runway impact creates the momentum, hype & desire that sells related items such as accessories and the ever affordable perfume..it's called trickle down effect..

 

[advo]

not at all, the "reconstructed models" are items hedi considers iconic, they're revisited with a twist. this has nothing to do with pilati's style & influences or whatever model you may redeem as successful..

I can see on the website that he kept the Muse and ChYc lines. Which are Pilati designs. And frankly, I find the new ChYc bags hilarious considering how prominent the Y still is. I wouldn't think that fit in with Slimane's aesthetics so I have a hard time believing they are "adjusted" to fit in with his vision.

it isn't...the runway impact creates the momentum, hype & desire that sells related items such as accessories and the ever affordable perfume..it's called trickle down effect..

It is a contradictory statement when you conceded that they are cashcows -- and considers Pilati's RTW vision for YSL weak. The accessories etc. were selling just fine without a "strong runway impact", hence they are certainly not "worthless".

 

[advo]

One last comment before I leave.

besides he's parisian and has worked under yves & at dior, it's a much more logical choice then pilati, a milanese formed at armani...

I'm sure you didn't mean to, but this could be read as discriminatory. Tom Ford is American, Philo is British, Galliano is British and there are so many other examples that prove your statement wrong.

 

[fashionista-ta]

Wrt Pilati, I realize this is somewhat a matter of taste, and I was never his biggest fan (and really disliked the heavily structured look he started with), but I looked at just about everything available at retail this past summer as I was shopping for a wedding, and repeatedly Pilati's designs stood out as very strong in comparison with what else is out there.

Obviously the powers that be decided they wanted a change, but there is no question in my mind that as of 2012, Pilati is the stronger designer of womenswear, and that his final work for the house was quite good.

It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out ...

I'm also interested to know whether the size range will accommodate all the women who wore Dior Homme.

 

[mistress_f]

One last comment before I leave.



I'm sure you didn't mean to, but this could be read as discriminatory. Tom Ford is American, Philo is British, Galliano is British and there are so many other examples that prove your statement wrong.

Also, Hedi is a french man whose obsessions include british indie kids (some of the looks in this collection screamed pete doherty in 2007) and seemingly los angeles it girls (see all the rachel zoe comment in here and elsewhere). It's not like he makes his being french a strong point in his aesthetic.

 

[fashionista-ta]

^ Who was it who said, All true Parisians live in Los Angeles? Oh wait, no one said that

 

[Izreal]

I can see on the website that he kept the Muse and ChYc lines. Which are Pilati designs. And frankly, I find the new ChYc bags hilarious considering how prominent the Y still is. I wouldn't think that fit in with Slimane's aesthetics so I have a hard time believing they are "adjusted" to fit in with his vision.

The reason you still see Pilati designs for sale on the site is because we currently are in FW12: a collection designed by Pilati. YSL is in transition right now but you can be sure slowly but surely they are phasing out the Pilati line/stock..

One last comment before I leave.

I'm sure you didn't mean to, but this could be read as discriminatory. Tom Ford is American, Philo is British, Galliano is British and there are so many other examples that prove your statement wrong.

pulling the race card huh? this is so silly, I never talked about nations, i mentioned cities...in a fashion context... i just find that Hedi has a lot more in common with Yves Saint Laurent, then Pilati.. and this can be traced by his Parisian studies & career path that landed him at YSL in 1996, and then at Dior for 7 years: this Parisian experience/pedigree simply places him as more logical choice then someone whose background is with Armani. There is nothing discriminatory in this statement, I love Milan btw, my partner lives there..

Also, Hedi is a french man whose obsessions include british indie kids (some of the looks in this collection screamed pete doherty in 2007) and seemingly los angeles it girls (see all the rachel zoe comment in here and elsewhere). It's not like he makes his being french a strong point in his aesthetic.

i disagree...but perhaps you're idea of being french is edith piaf, wine & cheese and beret hats? regardless again what i mentioned was paris not france.. hedi is obsessed with music & youth, paris is a great crossroad for both, he could often being seen at night in the local bar/club scene. this is of course where the "it" factor comes in, as many know Paris is also one of the central nerves of the fashionista & celebrity system... YSL had a similar lifestyle in the 70's/80's, always being spotted at the it places with his crew of bohemian socialites.. yet behind superficial appearances was a real political revolutionary engagement.. again Hedi studied Sciences-Politique and worked for Le Monde.. Yves & Pierre were obsessed with contemporary art, Hedi did les Beaux-Arts and is a photographer since age 11...so many parallels really that all fit in the "Rive Gauche" aesthetic and attitude... I'm sorry none of you seem to see it...

^ Who was it who said, All true Parisians live in Los Angeles? Oh wait, no one said that

the reason hedi exiled himself to LA was to escape the pressure of the Paris fashion scene & remain somewhat independent from corporate (the same reasons that made him leave paris & fashion in the first place 5 years ago). it's perhaps sad symbolically but is apparently a necessary step as he is more fragile then one thinks, especially in view of the recent events..

 

[tricotineacetat]

Saint Laurent is apparently for the moment still keeping quite a hand full of Pilati-era accessories' and footwear lines as a side sell to Slimane's latest offerings, so no, there is no complete cut with the past. This should on the other hand allow Slimane to take things a step slower-paced at developing his own leather goods range - He hasn't had that much of a commercial cash cow at Dior Homme in that regard and I do not see those first leather goods as being close contenders for a new 'hit' handbag as the Célines or even something as niche as The Row's very successful ultra-upscale bags range. Perhaps he'll need to hire somebody specifically for the handbags, surely for a house as big as Saint Laurent, you cannot neglect such potentially profitable product categories.

Concerning the denim, I also do wonder whether the latest Saint Laurent jeans will keep up the same popularity as when Dior Homme was at the peak of it's success - What I can see so far are relatively basic washes and not too many recognizable 'trademarks' such as Dior's easily identifiable darted back pockets and custom hardware, besides the fact that the jeans have not been given a particularly strong focus on the runway, unlike at Dior Homme, where there have always been a few key denim styles to be seen on the runway.

Also, I do not want to necessarily de-mystify the matter, but Japanese Selvedge denim is more of a prestige and preference in style than an actual quality upgrade - Those fabrics are woven on vintage looms and the characteristics are irregularities that modern industry looms do not produce. A.P.C's classical raw denim line makes use of Japanese selvedge denim since day one, Slimane apparently wore their 'New Standards' at the very beginning of his tenure at Dior, so it wouldn't surprise me if the cut of his Dior denim's was loosely based around those.

 

[Izreal]

a-ha...now we're talking... selvage denim is a type of denim which forms a clean natural edge that does not unravel. Selvage is desirable because the edge cannot fray like denim made on a projectile loom that has separate wefts, which leave an open edge that must be stitched. it really is superior to "Regular" denim, and really shows it's properties with age/fade. As you know Hedi is a fan of denim, and of course it's known he indeed was inspired by APC's raw NS.

Concerning the new line of denim at SL, i actually think denim is going to be taken even more seriously then at DH. There are already 2 lines dedicated to this: Saint Laurent Skinny & Saint Laurent Selvage. Concerning the simplified design, I am personally enchanted, as a denim afficionado and purist, I cannot stand back-pocket designs and other ornaments (other than on vintage Levis for accuracy & historical reasons), and pre-washed/distressed jeans is actually sacrilegious in the raw denim community. I've even sold most of my DH pairs as I found the darts have become tacky and the brand association ruined by KvA.. I have moved over to Balmain's straight leg model for my lux denim needs, and otherwise obscure Japanese brands. The element i will probably miss the most is the front hook closing that i though brought a certain rafinement to the other wise casual nature of denim, but i am eager to discover the new fit...

 

[tricotineacetat]

I can't say any of my Dior (non selvedge) raw denims have kept up worse than the A.P.C's I've also worn for a long time. The difference in actual quality/performance is not as crass as between goodyear-welted and glued shoes or a fully-canvassed, sartorial jacket next to a fused one - I am also highly doubting that the majority of Saint Laurent's target audience will base their buying decisions on those very principles, let alone their women's customers, to whom selling raw denim is probably as exotic as a blazer constructed like a men's jacket.

 

[Deleted member 7575]

All of the 'flou' part in the collection needs a bit further development, I don't think he got it exactly right at this part, most of the efforts to try a more classically 'feminine' hand so far seem like a show-statement only - I am highly doubting that long bias-cut caftan robes and red carpet dresses are key to a lot of women's needs, he will eventually need to come up with a more convincing formula than ruffles and poet sleeves galore or the ultra-spare, overpriced tunic dresses with shoulder pads that the YSL website presently offers - those pieces show his apprentice-status as a dressmaker, naturally so as he has so far never tried his hand on 'proper' womenswear (similar to Raf Simons' earliest attempts at Jil Sander).

I've thoroughly enjoyed your comments in this thread, including the ones after this comment but I chose this one to respond to...

I agree, once separated out and the "Rachel Zoe" sensibility removed it indeed smacks of Slimane's touch, which, I love for the new YSL.

As far as tailoring goes, it is exciting to see the craftsmanship go up a notch, the new look of Saint Laurent is also a new approach in RTW, as you mentioned. I do expect however, as seasons pass, he'll start considering how to move on from the traditional jacket, expand on its vocabulary, and offer women the same solutions in a more modern, less fussy, way. And this is when I think we'll see Slimane really shine.

And yes, the Flou is problematic. I guess none of us can be surprised, though you wonder why they don't just hire a talented dress designer to come in and work out the kinks.

 

[Izreal]

I can't say any of my Dior (non selvedge) raw denims have kept up worse than the A.P.C's I've also worn for a long time. The difference in actual quality/performance is not as crass as between goodyear-welted and glued shoes or a fully-canvassed, sartorial jacket next to a fused one

..and your examples maybe considered crass compared to quality/performance differences in between a nissan and a porsche engine... this is all relative to each one of course, but in the denim world raw selvage denim is highly regarded as the most authentic and finest quality of construction. wether you consider this an important detail or not is another story.. but i think it brings us closer to the level of artisanship which i find is often lacking in high-fashion..

I am also highly doubting that the majority of Saint Laurent's target audience will base their buying decisions on those very principles, let alone their women's customers, to whom selling raw denim is probably as exotic as a blazer constructed like a men's jacket.

does it really matter? why even go selvage then, the process is a lot more expensive? i think hedi sets a certain standard for himself first and foremost. a lot of the beauty in the dior homme garments i found were sometimes hidden details, things you wouldn't even notice when purchasing an item let alone seeing a picture of it. of course if your idea of luxury is a big fat gold Y logo, well all this might fly way over your head, but those that know will acknowledge the effort and hopefully salute the philosophy behind it.. as for your comment on women and raw denim i find this view a bit passé, i see women in raw denim everyday even if the skinny models usually contain elastane.. i do think the 2 new lines are more geared towards men (if you look at the campaign) but hedi's made it no secret he believes in a kind of unisex exchangeable wardrobe, a lot of the online items are even the same exact in both men/women section...

 

[vickileekx]

^ Who was it who said, All true Parisians live in Los Angeles? Oh wait, no one said that

But no one has said that many Parisians happen to really enjoy visiting Los Angeles. It's like an American version of Paris - the geography is similarly wide-spread, the people are more laid back, etc... All Parisians certainly don't take to Los Angeles but personally, I know quite a few different people who visit annually.

 

[lili la tigresse]

Basically what Slimane did, isn't different from what Kate Moss or Alexa Chung did for Topshop or Mulberry. Except that he's not selling us his wardrobe but his friends wardrobe.

Joking. Of course, I just don't get it because my idea of luxury is a logo

 

[tricotineacetat]

..and your examples maybe considered crass compared to quality/performance differences in between a nissan and a porsche engine... this is all relative to each one of course, but in the denim world raw selvage denim is highly regarded as the most authentic and finest quality of construction. wether you consider this an important detail or not is another story.. but i think it brings us closer to the level of artisanship which i find is often lacking in high-fashion..



does it really matter? why even go selvage then, the process is a lot more expensive? i think hedi sets a certain standard for himself first and foremost. a lot of the beauty in the dior homme garments i found were sometimes hidden details, things you wouldn't even notice when purchasing an item let alone seeing a picture of it. of course if your idea of luxury is a big fat gold Y logo, well all this might fly way over your head, but those that know will acknowledge the effort and hopefully salute the philosophy behind it.. as for your comment on women and raw denim i find this view a bit passé, i see women in raw denim everyday even if the skinny models usually contain elastane.. i do think the 2 new lines are more geared towards men (if you look at the campaign) but hedi's made it no secret he believes in a kind of unisex exchangeable wardrobe, a lot of the online items are even the same exact in both men/women section...

I won't respond to this further in detail as we've already gone through the matter of garment construction way further than in most other threads here on TFS, regardless of, and as far as I am concerned, that has been the undercurrent in my last few messages, is that what Slimane is doing is perfectly fine and indeed speaking to a very particular type of connaisseur for fine craftsmanship, but that ultimately is a niche clientele, just as people like Helmut Lang have always catered to a very specific, non-mainstream type of customer.

Monsieur Deneve made it pretty clear that he and Pinault are looking to grow the house of Saint Laurent bigger, aiming at the size of Dior or Chanel - In order to make that work, it will be important that it delivers easily understandable, desirable products for a larger audience than the few elitists that care for their jackets to be fully canvassed in construction or their jeans to be made of selvedge denim - It will need to be somewhat faster, more accessible fashion. All of the upgrade in quality is very commendable and adds to the integrity of the house as a leading french luxury goods player, but the major profits are being turned elsewhere.

Slimane will have to find a difficult balance between keeping his edge up that has for a long time defined the cult around his oeuvre, while at the same time opening to a mainstream clientele that he had so far never reached for with his work at Dior.